NVIDIA ‘Ampere’ 8nm Graphics Cards

[mahius]

Yes, exactly. Going by the average UK salaries it should be obvious that the average person on this forum very likely cannot afford a 2080 Ti or 3090. It's a bit off to assume or even imply that this is a forum or even a thread for the tiny percentage of people that can, and that "average mainstream" cards don't warrant as much discussion and attention as the bleeding-edge products, considering that is what most people will be using.

My friend has been meaning to build a PC for years and now he's finally building it. A few years ago he was able to spec out with 1080ti, since he wants best of the best. Now he won't even consider 2080ti, terrible value for money and the 2080 is priced like the 1080ti he was going to buy.

To put it into perspective this guy is rather well paid and lives with his parents (aka no living costs). If people like him scoff at the price of a 2080ti, surely others can learn that it just isn't worth being shafted.

Most other folks I know budget around the 200 quid or less mark for gpus. And those folks haven't had anything worth upgrading to in at least 5 years.

Used to be that 200 quid could go towards a console beating build when PS4/XB1 launched. How the tables have turned.

 

[Grim5]

So RTX3080~RTX2080TI or a bit quicker,so RTX3070~RTX2080/RTX2080 Super unless there is a big uarch improvement?? What is the RTX3060 going to be like then?



The average PC is rubbish due to GPUs being overpriced,and entry level and mainstream GPUs not getting the performance jumps due to this. Compare this to 10 years ago,where the mainstream GPUs of a new generation nearly matched the high end GPUs of the previous generations. The last time we had that with Nvidia was the GTX970 IIRC.

Consoles are not a top tier price - how will it compare to a more mainstream system like most of my mates have??

The fact is most PC games,are made with consoles and mainstream gaming PCs in mind. If it's another generation with a mediocre 60 series card or the AMD equivalent,games won't be determined by the minority of enthusiasts who are on forums. The silent majority make up most gamers. If you take away MMOs and Twitch Shooters,that is a significant amount of PC gaming revenue gone.

If you want graphics to truely go forward,the majority need GPUs which can do this. Ever thought why when Crysis launched we had the 8800GT and HD3850 which redefined entry level and mainstream GPU performance?

you're ignoring the 15% IPC and other uArch improvements.You don't have to guess, A100 is double the performance of Volta - you can use that to estimate the RTX 3000 series - the A100 has 6900 cores. Rough estimate would put the the 3080ti at 75% faster than Volta - which makes it 50% faster than 2080ti

 

[Besty]

The numbers are there for you to see that a very similar disparity will be present on release, just like in 2013.

Hey Jono, I agree on the disparity of performance, when the 3090ti launches i expect that we shall see a large gap again, the question for Nvidia is whether that gap justifies the price.

In 2013 it certainly did, at least for me because the 2013 generation of consoles were, in my opinion, pretty dire.

The things to keep in mind as to why in 2020 Nvidia may be significantly impacted by the console launches, even though their performance will excel.

The resolutions of the monitors/TVs are not increasing at the rate that the console CPU/GPU power is. The 1080p/60fps/HDR/VRR/VR gamer is still here, present and in big numbers. 4k is not the killer feature it is marketed as.
This is the first time in 20 years in console history, that the CPU of the Console is equal to the latest Desktop
The is the first time in console history that the disk drive performance inside the console will exceed the latest Desktop, until PCI4.0 NVME becomes standard
This is the first time in console history that the RAM capacity will equal a higher-end Desktop.

The CPU Cores inside the 2013 XBox One ran at 1.75Ghz, GPU cores of some board members here were running at near that speed

 

[five8five]

For example, the ps4 had 1.84tflops on release and just after, that same year, the 780ti was released with 5 tflops .

It looks like before the ps5 is even released, nvidia will release a ~20 tflop card (and thats a fairly conservative , non boosting number I believe based on leaked specs), doubling the PS5 tflop power.

The same thing is happening this gen as last gen.

It is odd to see a few people on hear argue against the reality of the situation

I totally agree, the graphics is the weak link.

To me the consoles have "aged" and they haven't been released yet due to 4K30 now being bandied about after all the hype.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

you're ignoring the 15% IPC and other uArch improvements.You don't have to guess, A100 is double the performance of Volta - you can use that to estimate the RTX 3000 series - the A100 has 6900 cores. Rough estimate would put the the 3080ti at 75% faster than Volta - which makes it 50% faster than 2080ti

Only in FP16 Tensor.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15801/nvidia-announces-ampere-architecture-and-a100-products

 

[lovelyhead]

I totally agree, the graphics is the weak link.

To me the consoles have "aged" and they haven't been released yet due to 4K30 now being bandied about after all the hype.

If you are talking about the ultra high end then what you say is true. The average gaming PC will not be as powerful as the consoles and will still be more expensive.

 

[Jono8]

Hey Jono, I agree on the disparity of performance, when the 3090ti launches i expect that we shall see a large gap again, the question for Nvidia is whether that gap justifies the price.

In 2013 it certainly did, at least for me because the 2013 generation of consoles were, in my opinion, pretty dire.

The things to keep in mind as to why in 2020 Nvidia may be significantly impacted by the console launches, even though their performance will excel.

The resolutions of the monitors/TVs are not increasing at the rate that the console CPU/GPU power is. The 1080p/60fps/HDR/VRR/VR gamer is still here, present and in big numbers. 4k is not the killer feature it is marketed as.
This is the first time in 20 years in console history, that the CPU of the Console is equal to the latest Desktop
The is the first time in console history that the disk drive performance inside the console will exceed the latest Desktop, until PCI4.0 NVME becomes standard
This is the first time in console history that the RAM capacity will equal a higher-end Desktop.

The CPU Cores inside the 2013 XBox One ran at 1.75Ghz, GPU cores of some board members here were running at near that speed

But I'm talking about what is available,not just what many might have.

For example ssds. As you mention pci-e 4.0 ssds are out and available right now. Also, I wouldn't have said ssds were mainstream in 2013. Far from it.

You can also buy ludicrously high core count cpus etc.

You can also buy crazy amounts of ram, far more than that in the console.

As I've stated many times before, the new consoles hardware on release will be plenty weaker than what you could buy on the same day for your PC. In two years time when we have ryzen 5000, ddr5 ram and a generation or more newer gpus the hardware in the consoles will be outdated and old hat just like it was in the ps4 and xbox one.


Also, what top end gpu in 2013 could clock at 1.75ghz on the core (unless under ln2 or something)!?

 

[LoadsaMoney]

I totally agree, the graphics is the weak link.

To me the consoles have "aged" and they haven't been released yet due to 4K30 now being bandied about after all the hype.

4K30fps RT Off, 4K30fpw RT On

 

[Jono8]

If you are talking about the ultra high end then what you say is true. The average gaming PC will not be as powerful as the consoles and will still be more expensive.

I dont believe anyone is arguing that. The "average " gaming pc has always been mediocre in comparison to the consoles

 

[Jacky60]

When I've upgraded I had to choose between RTX2080 and Vega VII. RTX2080 was significantly cheaper, had a few games with it and available. I could still use the extra performance of the 2080ti, but some models were almost double in price. No thanks.

A significantly bigger die of 352mm AMD sold for about $270 in 2012 - https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-hd-7870-xt.c1860. That's about $0.77 / mm
Now it sells a significantly smaller one of 251mm for about $399 (with the intended original price of $449!) https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-5700-xt.c3339 That's about $1.59 / mm
So double.
R290 at 438mm launched at $399. In Nov 2013. https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-r9-290.c2397

AMD is doing the same thing nVIDIA does and if they have the option, they will take from you as much money as possible.

Oh I don't doubt it I once owned an FX51 given free by the AMD PR department but that was also a ludicrous price at the time. It's just that AMD haven't been in a position to take the pi$$
for a very long time. When and if they are then I know they'll try it on. We just need two players (ideally three or more) at the table to keep things sane.

 

[Jono8]

My friend has been meaning to build a PC for years and now he's finally building it. A few years ago he was able to spec out with 1080ti, since he wants best of the best. Now he won't even consider 2080ti, terrible value for money and the 2080 is priced like the 1080ti he was going to buy.

To put it into perspective this guy is rather well paid and lives with his parents (aka no living costs). If people like him scoff at the price of a 2080ti, surely others can learn that it just isn't worth being shafted.

Most other folks I know budget around the 200 quid or less mark for gpus. And those folks haven't had anything worth upgrading to in at least 5 years.

Used to be that 200 quid could go towards a console beating build when PS4/XB1 launched. How the tables have turned.

That isnt really true.

The gtx 760 was $249 on release in 2013.

It had roughly the same tflop output as the consoles.

£200 wouldn't have got you a ps4 or xbox one beating gpu in 2013.

Which is my entire point. The consoles in 2013 were not as weak as some are making out in this thread on release. In fact performance wise its looking quite similar, except prices have gone up somewhat (But it looks like they are for the consoles too). Unfortunately we have no high end competition from AMD (and therefore Nvidia price gouging ) and a weak pound to thank for that.

 

[Quartz]

For those with memories better than mine, how is the hype comparing with this time two years ago?

 

[Jacky60]

I wish Nvidia were like Primark, 2080Ti for £2, yes please Marketing is a science now and with easy credit it's a simple matter to sell to the masses. Hence the huge levels of personal debt. Ironically Western economies are getting poorer, look at low wage increases and rising prices/,shrinkflation. No wonder people feed their consumerist habits with credit. These economic pressures are what's going to curb Nvidia's pricing as there will be a point where the consumers run out of money or credit.

Absolutely correct there's only so much give in the system and when people are forced to choose between essentials and discretionary spending on £1000+ GPUs I know where I'd spend the money.

 

[lovelyhead]

I dont believe anyone is arguing that. The "average " gaming pc has always been mediocre in comparison to the consoles

In a very affordable gaming PC back in 2013 when the Xbox One was released you could have had a radeon 290 for about £400 and a fairly cheap 4 core CPU and you would have much faster performance than the Xbox. Now you might need to spend at least £700 if you are upgrading, maybe more just to acheive parity.

 

[Jono8]

In a very affordable gaming PC back in 2013 when the Xbox One was released you could have had a radeon 290 for about £400 and a fairly cheap 4 core CPU and you would have much faster performance than the Xbox. Now you might need to spend at least £700 if you are upgrading, maybe more just to acheive parity.

In simply gpu terms, if the 3060 is about 10tflops+ (ie around 2070 super performance or slightly more) and falls at $350 mark and the consoles are indeed rrp'd at $100 more then for parity in performance output its almost exactly the same as 2013. As mentioned, the gtx 760 which was around the gpu perf of the 2013 consoles was $249.

My point is that history is repeating itself and it really is not much different . Many in this thread are making out that the ps5 and xbox x series will be hugely more powerful in comparison to available pc hardware than the ps4 and xbox one were. That simply is not true.

The only difference is that UK prices are worse because of the weak pound and nvidia can slap some extra gouging on the very high end stuff because they have no competition in that market.

 

[lovelyhead]

The only difference is that UK prices are worse because of the weak pound and nvidia can slap some extra gouging on the very high end stuff because they have no competition in that market.

OK fair enough. I think we agree then.

I just don't see the consoles being beaten by an average gaming PC for much, much longer this generation if even at all. The cost is just too high for the GPU's. Unless of course nVidia defies all expectations and cut's their prices.

 

[chaparral]

. Unfortunately we have no high end competition from AMD (and therefore Nvidia price gouging ) and a weak pound to thank for that.

Not sure who worst for the price gouging Nvidia or The Third parties or the retailers

Us poor buyers are getting hit really hard by all of them doing it

 

[scubes]

they will charge wot ever they like im still thinking £2000 for the top end and yes the ppl that buys these toys are the ones that suffer ..

 

[Troezar]

OK fair enough. I think we agree then.

I just don't see the consoles being beaten by an average gaming PC for much, much longer this generation if even at all. The cost is just too high for the GPU's. Unless of course nVidia defies all expectations and cut's their prices.

Totally agree. To give some context though I have other hobbies and prices for everything have risen. That's not to say there isn't room to reduce margins on GPUs

 

[Jono8]

they will charge wot ever they like im still thinking £2000 for the top end and yes the ppl that buys these toys are the ones that suffer ..

Its a real shame. Unfortunately , they have a monopoly at the high end. They are literally the only company that makes a gpu with 2080ti performance and likely will be the only company that makes a card at whatever the 3080ti performs at. So if you want that performance they are making you pay.

I really hope AMD can take it to them soon.