AMD Navi 23 ‘NVIDIA Killer’ GPU Rumored to Support Hardware Ray Tracing, Coming Next Year

[Stanners]

Is this not the console thread?

I hope it is

 

[shankly1985]

Not even sure if they can make it work without using hbm, wasn't the wide bandwidth of hbm what made it work? High Bandwidth Cache Control via High Bandwidth Memory.

No it was really just the cache controller that did the work doesn't matter the memory type.

 

[Dave2150]

agreed, thought I didn't have a hard date of 2010. Half life, Far Cry, Crysis... then... erm? Yeah there hasn't been a must-have ground-breaking game for some time now.

Go play Half Life Alyx on a Valve Index

 

[Gerard]

No it was really just the cache controller that did the work doesn't matter the memory type.

Hmm dunno about that, remember they had something similar with fury x where they were supposedly hand tuning games to work in conjunction with the hbm, that was their first attempt, though admittitedly something they had to do in software due to the card only having 4 gigs available.

Suppose we'll see at some point if it returns with the next series of cards later this year, though I think its a feature that needs hbm.

 

[shankly1985]

Hmm dunno about that, remember they had something similar with fury x where they were supposedly hand tuning games to work in conjunction with the hbm, that was their first attempt, though admittitedly something they had to do in software due to the card only having 4 gigs available.

Suppose we'll see at some point if it returns with the next series of cards later this year, though I think its a feature that needs hbm.

Guess we will see this feature is just like Intel rapid response when you can get an ssd to boost an hard drive by using the ssd as an cache.

It really is just the cache controller on the GPU. If it returns or not I think depends on the demand for it tbh and sadly not meany Vega users even use it.

Or another way of looking at it is creating a ram disk out of memory but with AMD it's taking the best of both its speeding up and also expanding the amount of usable VRAM.

 

[Jacky60]

Well that is also partially due to Ryzen releases and people finally upgrading their pcs - i am one of them upgraded from a q9550 to an 3950x so 12 years upgrade path. Ok a bit extreme but a lot of people sitting on an intel 2600 didn't feel the need to upgrade apart from a gpu. Now with streaming and more multitasking opportunities more people upgraded.

But current gen consoles actually do really good in gaming. My gf cannot spot the difference between 30fps and 60fps unless I do a comparison. I usually have a current gen console if not at least 2, and up to some years ago my pc was my main gaming machine. A few years after ps4 came out my pc got used only for some Dota and perhaps a starcraft. I used the console a lot more than the pc possibly due to the exclusives and because nothing important popped up on pc.
I actually did have a vega 56 on my old q9550 pc but cpu couldn't take advantage of it but still was decent. Of course now the PC is a beast and games that release on both i get them on PC if there is an option and the port of the game is not crappy.

The point i am trying to make is that now consoles are up there quality wise, they have awesome exclusive games and are plug and play. Meanwhile PC costs a lot more to build one decent and gets ports of console games which are not up to their full potential which is a big shame - i was soo looking forward to buy again and replay Horizon zero Dawn but that aint happening now. It is a shame and I am annoyed because I like eye candy but also cannot justify stupid prices on something that devalues rapidly. My first car was cheaper than this potential 3070 RTX ...

I have hopes for AMD and big navi but this time I am skeptical because i got badly shot buying into the hype of the Vega 56 on release time with the double price. The gpu is awesome but it hurt a lot paying double what it was worth because of the mining craze and Raja's marketing campaign.

+1 I hope the prices settle at a more reasonable level than recently as my first car was also cheaper than the RTX 3070 and genuinely provided an awful lot of fun. I guess just waiting on cards coming down in price is the best way although was peeved at the performance of FS2020 on my 1080ti and the 2080ti numbers I've seen.
In two years time it should be playable at decent FPS for a more reasonable price but I refunded it as it's not a good experience at the moment.

 

[Jacky60]

Computers says No.

Also;

Phwwoaarh now you're talking, I guess it's not really too early as the sun is out!

 

[Poneros]

I know a lot of people didn't like HBCC and seen it as not a feature for gaming but I do need to disagree I have seen in some games that performance increaded using HBCC also games like COD just work better with it on. I also hearing that new Nvidia GPUs will have there own feature of HBCC i do hope with NAVI 2020 that HBCC can make a comeback.
Its a feature that people do not need to use and for them that do good

The thing is, I was kinda disappointed with HBCC in the end. Too much instability with games, driver updates sometimes nuked it for months, etc. I really like the concept though and would be so excited if they kept it alive, or Nvidia's alternative turns out to exist also.

It did help a lot in a few instances tho, so I can't totally hate it. I just wish AMD didn't abandon it so quickly.

 

[shankly1985]

The thing is, I was kinda disappointed with HBCC in the end. Too much instability with games, driver updates sometimes nuked it for months, etc. I really like the concept though and would be so excited if they kept it alive, or Nvidia's alternative turns out to exist also.

It did help a lot in a few instances tho, so I can't totally hate it. I just wish AMD didn't abandon it so quickly.

I must be a lucky one then because I haven't had any issues with it.
I just set it to the minimum amount of ram and left it.

 

[Orangey]

Phwwoaarh now you're talking, I guess it's not really too early as the sun is out!

Wow I finally found someone that drinks that stuff.

 

[Lokken86]

Go play Half Life Alyx on a Valve Index

They just don’t know

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Great idea,lets pay more for a VR headset,than already overpriced GPUs!!

 

[Jacky60]

Wow I finally found someone that drinks that stuff.

I don't drink Fosters btw! Not unless there's almost nothing else.

 

[JediFragger]

I don't drink Fosters btw! Not unless there's almost nothing else.

I can't stand weak-ass beer! Not drank the crap since I was 18/19, beater all the way

 

[EastCoastHandle]

Is bandwidth really that important? In simple terms Yes, it is. (IMO)

Games will become far more sensitive to bandwidth. We are seeing it in MS Flight Simulator, Horizon Zero Dawn, etc. And these are new titles released within the last 30 or so days, not months ago. So the transition is happening now. As developers place more priority to console over PC we will see these "outliers" become more common place. And it will get worst as developers transitions to next gen console's strength...bandwidth.

Reality is all games are now ported from console. End of discussion. Even if it marketed towards PC the engine will be partisan for console. We can only hope that extra development time is added so that the game runs a bit more smoothly on PC. But the penalty is the overhead associated with PC gaming which doesn't exist on console. Right now we need to buffer consoles bandwidth superiority with higher vram. Until we get to a point that PC also uses GDDRX as main ram. Lets do a quick comparison.

DDR4-3600 28800 MB/s
DDR4-4000 32000 MB/s
DDR5-4800 38400 MB/s
XSeriesX.....560000 MB/s
PS5...........448000 MB/s
(I kept it at MB/s instead of GB/s for posterity)




As long as main memory is at the bottom of the totem pole main memory will become more and more of a hindrance to gaming then it could help IMO.

However, at the end of the day picojoules per bit is far more important then just speed alone. With HBM2e leading the way. Which is why I wonder it wasn't added to consoles...at least not yet. I got a sneaky suspicion these new consoles will get some sort of update that will include HBM2e as the original rumor suggested an update to these consoles...which we haven't seen yet.

Be that as it may, lowering the picojoules per bit in a smaller area is the holy grail for memory.
As you can see the area and power consumption costs of HBM2 is still far better then GDDR6. But why does Nvidia/AMD still use GDDR6? Cost... And this is just a guess...if 16GB GDDR6 cost $96 then 16GB of HBM2e would be around $150.

Rambus's tech can talk to GDDR6 storage at up to 16Gbit/s per pin – double the speed of single-channel 8Gbit/s GDDR5. That's five times faster than DDR4 RAM, which has 3.2Gbit/s of bandwidth. Each GDDR6 channel is 16 bits wide, making 32 bits in total for this dual-channel architecture.

So, now that's out the way were does that leave PC gaming? At the very least a lot of catching up. And from the looks of things DDR5 won't give the edge over what consoles are doing. At this point PC is now playing catch up.

At the end of the day in order to have "plug n play" gaming experience (if gaming is your only concern) you have to follow the direction of developers. And if developers help tailor gaming engines that cater to bandwidth more so then anything else then you have to tailor your PC to do the same. No ifs, ands, nor buts about it.

It looks like we are going to need new gpus with vram that can at least match what consoles have for memory if we want to play those open world, sandbox type of games. At which some future point developers will start to add ray traced elements into them.

 

[shankly1985]

Is bandwidth really that important? In simple terms Yes, it is. (IMO)

Games will become far more sensitive to bandwidth. We are seeing it in MS Flight Simulator, Horizon Zero Dawn, etc. And these are new titles released within the last 30 or so days, not months ago. So the transition is happening now. As developers place more priority to console over PC we will see these "outliers" become more common place. And it will get worst as developers transitions to next gen console's strength...bandwidth.

Reality is all games are now ported from console. End of discussion. Even if it marketed towards PC the engine will be partisan for console. We can only hope that extra development time is added so that the game runs a bit more smoothly on PC. But the penalty is the overhead associated with PC gaming which doesn't exist on console. Right now we need to buffer consoles bandwidth superiority with higher vram. Until we get to a point that PC also uses GDDRX as main ram. Lets do a quick comparison.

DDR4-3600 28800 MB/s
DDR4-4000 32000 MB/s
DDR5-4800 38400 MB/s
XSeriesX.....560000 MB/s
PS5...........448000 MB/s
(I kept it at MB/s instead of GB/s for posterity)




As long as main memory is at the bottom of the totem pole main memory will become more and more of a hindrance to gaming then it could help IMO.

However, at the end of the day picojoules per bit is far more important then just speed alone. With HBM2e leading the way. Which is why I wonder it wasn't added to consoles...at least not yet. I got a sneaky suspicion these new consoles will get some sort of update that will include HBM2e as the original rumor suggested an update to these consoles...which we haven't seen yet.

Be that as it may, lowering the picojoules per bit in a smaller area is the holy grail for memory.
As you can see the area and power consumption costs of HBM2 is still far better then GDDR6. But why does Nvidia/AMD still use GDDR6? Cost...





So, now that's out the way were does that leave PC gaming? At the very least a lot of catching up. And from the looks of things DDR5 won't give the edge over what consoles are doing. At this point PC is now playing catch up.

At the end of the day in order to have "plug n play" gaming experience (if gaming is your only concern) you have to follow the direction of developers. And if developers create gaming engines that cater to bandwidth more so then anything else then you have to tailor your PC to do the same. No ifs, ands, nor buts about it.

It looks like we are going to need new gpus with vram that can at least match what consoles have for memory if we want to play those open world, sandbox type of games. At which some future point developers will start to add ray traced elements into them.

This games are port from console on pc is a load of rubbish tbh
All games are built on a PC the console dev box is a PC running configuration and software for the console. The term console port is a bad term used wrong most of the time.

When a pc game is labelled "console port" it really means no thought went into the PC version like menus, 30fps lock, missing feature etc

If you believe a game built on let's say unreal 5 is then port to pc from console that is completely wrong! The game is built on the engine and ported to the console too meet the configuration set by Sony or Microsoft if Devs are not lazy then they will rewrite code designed for the PC version only like mouse and keyboard working with menus, uncapped frame rate and added PC features enabled or disabled with the menu.

The true story is a console port term is lazy development.

 

[Quartz]

Reality is all games are now ported from console.

Really? Because the PC market has the same numbers (~ 100 million) as the console market.

 

[EastCoastHandle]

This games are port from console on pc is a load of rubbish tbh
All games are built on a PC the console dev box is a PC running configuration and software for the console. The term console port is a bad term used wrong most of the time.

Do understand there is no implication that games are built using a console. That's just silly. I didn't elaborate on it because it's rudimentary to know that console games are created on a PC but not for a pc...it's for console. I didn't think anyone would need to say that.

When a pc game is labelled "console port" it really means no thought went into the PC version like menus, 30fps lock, missing feature etc

That's just one view. There are others. For example on console the engine itself is more "close to metal" then on PC. Which was the point why we have Mantle to Vulkan and DX12. However, still not on the level as console but it's a start. There are other examples such as the gaming engine itself is tailored for console. The example for that would be the introduction of Unreal Engine 5. But that's enough examples, you get the point.

If you believe a game built on let's say unreal 5 is then port to pc from console that is completely wrong! The game is built on the engine and ported to the console too meet the configuration set by Sony or Microsoft if Devs are not lazy then they will rewrite code designed for the PC version only like mouse and keyboard working with menus, uncapped frame rate and added PC features enabled or disabled with the menu.

This is completely inaccurate and you are just making it up. Sweeny clearly stated that the UE5 was designed for PS5. Which refutes your own notion that they are being lazy.

He and the engineers at Epic are using the console themselves. Sweeney says the two companies have been working closely together during the development of UE5 and the PS5, ensuring that Epic’s game development tool sets for developers creating next-gen titles is optimized for the hardware that software will ultimately run on. The UE5 demo released this morning was even running on an early PS5 console, and Epic captured the quite remarkable footage straight from the device itself.

https://www.theverge.com/21256299/e...-ps5-ssd-impressive-pc-gaming-future-next-gen

Really? Because the PC market has the same numbers (~ 100 million) as the console market.

That's the way I see it. What PC exclusive game market out there we have (non indie, AAA titles) that are not on console, start on console or exclusive to console for at least the 1st 2-6 months? I haven't come across any on PC...

 

[CuriousTomCat]

This games are port from console on pc is a load of rubbish tbh
All games are built on a PC the console dev box is a PC running configuration and software for the console. The term console port is a bad term used wrong most of the time.

When a pc game is labelled "console port" it really means no thought went into the PC version like menus, 30fps lock, missing feature etc

If you believe a game built on let's say unreal 5 is then port to pc from console that is completely wrong! The game is built on the engine and ported to the console too meet the configuration set by Sony or Microsoft if Devs are not lazy then they will rewrite code designed for the PC version only like mouse and keyboard working with menus, uncapped frame rate and added PC features enabled or disabled with the menu.

The true story is a console port term is lazy development.

The Playstation 3 has a PowerPC RISC based processor and cant run x86 code natively. The Decr-1000a development kit also has a PowerPC processor.

Xbox games can be created on PC hardware though.

 

[shankly1985]

Do understand there is no implication that games are built using a console. That's just silly. I didn't elaborate on it because it's rudimentary to know that console games are created on a PC but not for a pc...it's for console. I didn't think anyone would need to say that.


That's just one view. There are others. For example on console the engine itself is more "close to metal" then on PC. Which was the point why we have Mantle to Vulkan and DX12. However, still not on the level as console but it's a start. There are other examples such as the gaming engine itself is tailored for console. The example for that would be the introduction of Unreal Engine 5. But that's enough examples, you get the point.



This is completely inaccurate and you are just making it up. Sweeny clearly stated that the UE5 was designed for PS5. Which refutes your own notion that they are being lazy.


https://www.theverge.com/21256299/e...-ps5-ssd-impressive-pc-gaming-future-next-gen



That's the way I see it. What PC exclusive game market out there we have (non indie, AAA titles) that are not on console, start on console or exclusive to console for at least the 1st 2-6 months? I haven't come across any on PC...

Devs being game developer not engine development like unreal engine *
Lazy development doesn't come from the engine it comes from the games developer.