Raytracing - Would you buy in to it now?

[almoststew1990]

I can't remember if I've replied to this thread before but I've now played Q2 and Control with the high ray tracing settings.

It looks nice but "looking nice" isn't what games are lacking in these days. It looks nice but isn't a mind blowing leap in looking nice.

Games that I play for purely gameplay and fun, games from Warzone to Kerbal Space Programme to freakin' Worms, are not going to become more enjoyable due to ray tracing.

Games that I play due to get immersed in a story and world, usually in first person like Red Dead 2, Dishonoured, Skyrim, would benefit from RT but the shinyness if the graphics isn't what limits my immersion at the moment - it's A.I being limited or bugging out, animations, crap UI, convoluted controls.

Throw into the mix the performance penalty and I would not be fussed if my next GPU did not have RT support (in exchange for being cheaper or faster traditional rendering or whatever). Unless RT became a lot more popular and "very high" and "ultra" settings were effectively locked out as they were ray tracing only (like when we move from DX9 to DX10 to DX11)

 

[Twinz]

I have a 3080 but I have not tried any ray tracing beyond the port royal benchmark. I bought the 3080 for it's general VR performance.

If they offered a 3080 without ray tracing for more than $20 less, I would not have spent extra on the card with ray-tracing. (assuming a normal GPU market)

 

[willhub]

You'd have spent $20 less on a 3080 without ray tracing? That's absolute madness.

That's like a burger and chips from Maccie D's that.

 

[Twinz]

You'd have spent $20 less on a 3080 without ray tracing? That's absolute madness.

That's like a burger and chips from Maccie D's that.

My 1080ti was struggling to get my driving sims to hold 90fps on my Reverb G1. I couldn't run shadows so all the cars looked like hover craft driving around with a generic black patch under them. I couldn't run any AA so diagonal lines were distracting at times.

The sims I run don't have ray-tracing but the old-school "faked lighting" looks beautiful now that I have the power to run it.

From what I have read, ray-tracing in its current state, just trades fake lighting for fake resolution. I hear fake resolution looks good when DLSS 2.0 is implemented well, but then old-school fake lighting looks good too when done well.

 

[Curlyriff]

You'd have spent $20 less on a 3080 without ray tracing? That's absolute madness.

That's like a burger and chips from Maccie D's that.

$20 probably wouldn't of worried and paid extra myself (although that is closer to 3 burgers and fries ) but had it been £599 instead of £649 I wouldn't have bothered with RT this generation either tbh. Or for me then the 6900xt to loose any RT support but save £50, I would have taken the £50 tbh.

 

[Wrinkly]

My 1080ti was struggling to get my driving sims to hold 90fps on my Reverb G1. I couldn't run shadows so all the cars looked like hover craft driving around with a generic black patch under them. I couldn't run any AA so diagonal lines were distracting at times.

The sims I run don't have ray-tracing but the old-school "faked lighting" looks beautiful now that I have the power to run it.

From what I have read, ray-tracing in its current state, just trades fake lighting for fake resolution. I hear fake resolution looks good when DLSS 2.0 is implemented well, but then old-school fake lighting looks good too when done well.

Your old-school "faked lighting" is pre baked ray tracing. That is why you get to play the hero in many games yet can be outclassed by a simple chair. Real time ray tracing does away with the need for static scenery, while providing a more immersive and natural looking scene. I also enjoy VR and look forward to the day we can play VR games with ray tracing.

 

[GloriousMess]

Technologly will converge on a generic ray-tracing solution given enough time, as it's the most realistic approach to lighting. Until that point arrives though we'll have to make do with the intermediate generations such as Ampere. Is it worth buying into those generations? No, not at the moment.

 

[Twinz]

That is why you get to play the hero in many games yet can be outclassed by a simple chair.

What?

 

[Wrinkly]

What?

You should have noticed by now that objects tend to be static in many games where you get to run around in 3D. This is due to lighting, which shadows are part of, being pre baked. Real time ray tracing will allow for a far more dynamic experience.

 

[henson0115]

You should have noticed by now that objects tend to be static in many games where you get to run around in 3D. This is due to lighting, which shadows are part of, being pre baked. Real time ray tracing will allow for a far more dynamic experience.

what games are you playing, most of the ones ive played in the last 10 years have not had static shadows. i think you may be talking about games from the 90s/80s. engine shadows are so good now in most cases you cant tell if they are ray traced or not. hence all the people in this thread stating they cant notice. control is the perfect example of this.

im not quite sure you understand how 3d games are made if you think they have static shadows

https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/BuildingWorlds/LightingAndShadows/Shadows/index.html
https://docs.cryengine.com/display/CEMANUAL/Shadow+Proxies
https://forums.unrealengine.com/dev...1771-why-is-my-ivy-not-casting-static-shadows

dont fall for all the market bs

ray traced shadows are simply more accurate, doesn't mean older methods are not accurate to. it could be the difference between 100% accurate and 99.9% accurate for example
https://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs294-13/fa09/lectures/scribe-lecture1.pdf

 

[MCFC_ANDY]

for me its a gimmick, stop look at reflection, move on, stop,look move on etc etc, dont get it,if it was in your face, then fairy muff i suppose, but not for me, when i upgrade RT will be not even a thought on which card i get tbh, all i care about will be fps and resolution.

 

[Rroff]

what games are you playing, most of the ones ive played in the last 10 years have not had static shadows. i think you may be talking about games from the 90s/80s. engine shadows are so good now in most cases you cant tell if they are ray traced or not. hence all the people in this thread stating they cant notice. control is the perfect example of this.

im not quite sure you understand how 3d games are made if you think they have static shadows

https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/BuildingWorlds/LightingAndShadows/Shadows/index.html
https://docs.cryengine.com/display/CEMANUAL/Shadow+Proxies
https://forums.unrealengine.com/dev...1771-why-is-my-ivy-not-casting-static-shadows

dont fall for all the market bs

ray traced shadows are simply more accurate, doesn't mean older methods are not accurate to. it could be the difference between 100% accurate and 99.9% accurate for example
https://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs294-13/fa09/lectures/scribe-lecture1.pdf

A lot of games still bake in 60-70% of the shadows and have a lot of static geometry which can't move due to being included in the offline baking process - then selectively has dynamic shadows on certain objects.

Indirect lighting in general and surfaces that scatter light back into the scene such as chrome are poorly handled by non-RT techniques if they are done at all - not the best example but in Quake 2 RTX for instance the sunlight is scattered off these chair legs (look closely at the ground at the bottom of them)



With non-RT techniques this is usually not done or only done in hand crafted unique instances - and these little touches really make a difference when you have a whole scene ray traced.

 

[Twinz]

You should have noticed by now that objects tend to be static in many games where you get to run around in 3D. This is due to lighting, which shadows are part of, being pre baked. Real time ray tracing will allow for a far more dynamic experience.

The shadows in Project Cars 2 move as the cars move. (Once "detailed shadows" are turned on)

The experience now is very immersive in VR. Ray tracing with fake resution may be better than real resolution and fake lighting, but the latter is not a "problem" that I need fixed. (At least not in the titles I play)

 

[henson0115]

A lot of games still bake in 60-70% of the shadows and have a lot of static geometry which can't move due to being included in the offline baking process - then selectively has dynamic shadows on certain objects.

Indirect lighting in general and surfaces that scatter light back into the scene such as chrome are poorly handled by non-RT techniques if they are done at all - not the best example but in Quake 2 RTX for instance the sunlight is scattered off these chair legs (look closely at the ground at the bottom of them)

With non-RT techniques this is usually not done or only done in hand crafted unique instances - and these little touches really make a difference when you have a whole scene ray traced.

i think you may be getting confused with pre baked lighting? also theres nothing to say you cant pre bake a random far off object but use dynamic on the main screen focus. in any case i cant think of a game of the top of my head where ive seen pre baked shadows at top/high settings. please name a few that you know of and i will take a look.
unless the game is set to low, then its most often than not pre baked. sorry should have added the low/medium/high element to the mix.

 

[Curlyriff]

A lot of games still bake in 60-70% of the shadows and have a lot of static geometry which can't move due to being included in the offline baking process - then selectively has dynamic shadows on certain objects.

Indirect lighting in general and surfaces that scatter light back into the scene such as chrome are poorly handled by non-RT techniques if they are done at all - not the best example but in Quake 2 RTX for instance the sunlight is scattered off these chair legs (look closely at the ground at the bottom of them)

Picture Snip

With non-RT techniques this is usually not done or only done in hand crafted unique instances - and these little touches really make a difference when you have a whole scene ray traced.

Honestly for someone whom uses raytracing for Architectural model renders and similar it is great there, in a game where you are running around such as Quake for instance, honestly, why care cause it adds nothing and will basically be unnoticed unless you stare at it to see it happening. It is great that it can be done but it really isn't worth it or critical or add anything for doing such. In fact I can't think of a single game that really benefits from what you are showing in said image. I know it an example but showing examples where it actually makes the difference I would get behind.

Proper ray traced reflections so you can see a target around the corner or similar, yeah I can see that being really good for say an Urban environment FPS shooter of some sort.

 

[Wrinkly]

what games are you playing, most of the ones ive played in the last 10 years have not had static shadows. i think you may be talking about games from the 90s/80s. engine shadows are so good now in most cases you cant tell if they are ray traced or not. hence all the people in this thread stating they cant notice. control is the perfect example of this.

im not quite sure you understand how 3d games are made if you think they have static shadows

https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/BuildingWorlds/LightingAndShadows/Shadows/index.html
https://docs.cryengine.com/display/CEMANUAL/Shadow+Proxies
https://forums.unrealengine.com/dev...1771-why-is-my-ivy-not-casting-static-shadows

dont fall for all the market bs

ray traced shadows are simply more accurate, doesn't mean older methods are not accurate to. it could be the difference between 100% accurate and 99.9% accurate for example
https://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs294-13/fa09/lectures/scribe-lecture1.pdf

Roff already answered this, but I'd like to add that pre baked shadows do add a little performance. Given the vast range of hardware that games now support this saving however small is very useful.

A good example of this can be found in Control. It has tables that can be broken, while their the shadow still remain.

 

[henson0115]

Roff already answered this, but I'd like to add that pre baked shadows do add a little performance. Given the vast range of hardware that games now support this saving however small is very useful.

A good example of this can be found in Control. It has tables that can be broken, while their the shadow still remain.

i understand the theory, but i think you are actually as i mentioned to rroff referring to static/dynamic lights and not dynamic shadows. - shadows alone wont save much performance
i think if you read the links ive sent you will see why..


edit: also games have high/medium/low etc normally low is pre baked and high is dynamic for example.
edit2: another link https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/LightModes.html
edit 3:curious if the leg thing in control changes based on 1settings and 2raytracing please test and let me know, ive unuinstalled it now and i cba to download 60oddgb again to test it

 

[Rroff]

i understand the theory, but i think you are actually as i mentioned to rroff referring to static/dynamic lights and not dynamic shadows. - shadows alone wont save much performance
i think if you read the links ive sent you will see why..


edit: also games have high/medium/low etc normally low is pre baked and high is dynamic for example.
edit2: another link https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/LightModes.html

I'll try to remember to reply in more detail when I'm at my PC but there are still games that use pre-baked lightmaps today.

 

[henson0115]

I'll try to remember to reply in more detail when I'm at my PC but there are still games that use pre-baked lightmaps today.

no worries and thanks!

 

[DaveGW]

We can prove that is not true. Take a look at games like Metro Exodus Enhanced and Stay in the Light both of which prove that is wrong and that Ray Tracing is not just an afterthought. Plus due to the next gen console games having Ray Tracing we should see adoption accelerate in PC games. Plus its not just games some of us use Ray Tracing outside games.

There are already games that need Ray Tracing as a minimum spec and more games like that is only a matter of time.

No that's just speculation ' we should' doesn't have any barring, your just basing your remarks off of 'faith, hope, belief, trust and luck'', these are what your left with when you have nothing else. The games you mention were 2 birthdays ago.