Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

chrcoluk · 27 Jul 2022 at 20:20

Sheff said:
That definition has been in use for several years at least, the full reports do go into further detail and to be fair were aimed at improving energy efficiency of houses.

One thing to note is that it's based on what would be required to heat a home sufficiently, not what's actually being spent by households.

That sounds like the new metrics been used for the new WHD (that will use theoretical energy costs based on floor space), so in effect people living in small flats, studios and bedsits can never be in fuel poverty or get WHD either. O_o

purplesky · 27 Jul 2022 at 20:22

LabR@t said:
I guess some will try to live without power and live of batteries, charge at work etc

It would be possible to live off batteries, but would require big lifestyle changes for many. Instead of a 55" or bigger TV, people could just watch stuff on their tablet or phone with much lower power consumption. LED light bulbs are power efficient. A few portable solar panels in the garden would charge the batteries. You wouldn't generate much electricity on cloudy days, so you would need several large batteries topped up to keep things going.

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 27 Jul 2022 at 20:25

Sheff said:
That definition has been in use for several years at least, the full reports do go into further detail and to be fair were aimed at improving energy efficiency of houses.

One thing to note is that it's based on what would be required to heat a home sufficiently, not what's actually being spent by households.

Yeah a couple I think

Fuel poverty statistics

This series brings together all documents relating to fuel poverty statistics.

www.gov.uk

Its ok you can make sure your not in fuel poverty by being in a band C house or better, forget ability to pay.

The old measure was a bit crap as is the "new"

LabR@t · 27 Jul 2022 at 20:37

purplesky said:
It would be possible to live off batteries, but would require big lifestyle changes for many. Instead of a 55" or bigger TV, people could just watch stuff on their tablet or phone with much lower power consumption. LED light bulbs are power efficient. A few portable solar panels in the garden would charge the batteries. You wouldn't generate much electricity on cloudy days, so you would need several large batteries topped up to keep things going.

I think this could well be the future

Sheff · 27 Jul 2022 at 20:41

chrcoluk said:
That sounds like the new metrics been used for the new WHD (that will use theoretical energy costs based on floor space), so in effect people living in small flats, studios and bedsits can never be in fuel poverty or get WHD either. O_o

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Yeah a couple I think

Fuel poverty statistics

This series brings together all documents relating to fuel poverty statistics.

www.gov.uk

Its ok you can make sure your not in fuel poverty by being in a band C house or better, forget ability to pay.

The old measure was a bit crap as is the "new"

Yeah this is the new one:

"The metric for Fuel poverty in England is the Low Income Low Energy Efficiency (LILEE) indicator.

A household is considered to be fuel poor if:
 They have a fuel poverty energy efficiency rating (FPEER) of band D or below; and
 If they were to spend their modelled energy costs, they would be left with a residual income below the official poverty line.

The LILEE definition is a relative indicator with regards to income but an absolute measure regarding energy efficiency. "

It's one of those tricky ones where the measure is useful for a very specific purpose but maybe not for describing the situation we're in.

Western Power did some analysis a while ago which looked at a range of indicators:

National Grid - Social indicator mapping

National Grid Electricity Distribution is the regional electricity distribution division of National Grid.

www.westernpower.co.uk

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 27 Jul 2022 at 20:45

LabR@t said:
I think this could well be the future

No heating or decent cooking
Christ JRM would be creaming himself the population will be desperate
No heating or cooking for the majority is going back hundreds of years

I could genuinely see a full blown marxist/ communist party getting voted in if this happened
The last time the general population were that poor they didn't have a vote

chrcoluk · 27 Jul 2022 at 20:57

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
No heating or decent cooking
Christ JRM would be creaming himself the population will be desperate
No heating or cooking for the majority is going back hundreds of years

I could genuinely see a full blown marxist/ communist party getting voted in if this happened
The last time the general population were that poor they didn't have a vote

It does feel like a new poll tax moment, I wasnt an adult then so this is in my adult life the most unsettling period in the country.

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 27 Jul 2022 at 21:03

chrcoluk said:
It does feel like a new poll tax moment, I wasnt an adult then so this is in my adult life the most unsettling period in the country.

This is way worse
Most of the poll tax was political, yes it impacted many but the numbers (£s) were low in reality unless you had like a band A (equivalent) house with 6 people living in it

Its also different in that the government aren't in control of this, they were in charge of poll tax

Doobedoo · 27 Jul 2022 at 21:16

RockLobster said:
How do prepayment meters work with the standing charge? If you didn’t use any gas or electric for 20 days does the standing charge build up?

Same. I get charged weekly just as everyone else.

silversurfer · 27 Jul 2022 at 21:22

chrcoluk said:
Well my first month was July. This month just gone by. Sundays usually get a drop in off peak rates but most other days are pegged at 35p, however the SC is less than half of SVT. My first bill was roughly for 3 weeks, so I added 33% and it came to £11 less. Will see what happens in August, it will definitely be less than SVT October onwards consistently though.

Sound good, does this graph reflect the max capped price rising recently

Grafana

dashboards.energy-stats.uk

chrcoluk said:
Agile for Electric and Tracker for gas is better.

Tracker is 11p gas unit, Agile is 35p unit electric, and they will be fixed for year, they may also give you cheaper off peak (especially tracker). Finally agile is also only 21p day SC.

Tracker isnt fixed then, just capped like SVT perhaps ? I had a relative ask about Agile and Octopus cust service said it would cost massively more in higher rates over doing nothing with the capped svt rates. If your experience is entirely different I wonder why customer service is so adamant against allowing the switch in tariffs, is that just a one off and my relative should try again ?

Stu999 · 27 Jul 2022 at 21:28

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Its also different in that the government aren't in control of this, they were in charge of poll tax

Successive governments are in control of this; they should have managed our energy generating capacity better.

The problem is there is no quick fix now, it will take 5 - 10 years to build new nuclear plants (excluding the one already under construction).

Zenduri · 27 Jul 2022 at 21:35

Sinbad2000 said:
https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1552333029951131648?t=Dsu_3LL2wyCXjaRyxIMFwA&s=19

NEWS: It gets worse!
I've just got uodated price cap predictions from @CornwallInsight.

The latest spike in year-ahead wholesale price means the OCT cap prediction is now UP 78% (so £3,500/yr on typical bills) & likely up again in Jan.

Its will be desperate. Intervention needed

Zenduri said:
New ATH for Winter contracts it seems, it did peak at 530 this morning but now 507, I think the 65% increase being toted for October will see a revision and be more like 75% if these prices hold or get worse over the next few weeks

Well my comment from 1pm today aged well.....

... go me?

Uther · 27 Jul 2022 at 21:40

It won't be millions of people not paying out of protest, they simply won't be able to afford to pay.

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 27 Jul 2022 at 21:40

Stu999 said:
Successive governments are in control of this; they should have managed our energy generating capacity better.

The problem is there is no quick fix now, it will take 5 - 10 years to build new nuclear plants (excluding the one already under construction).

Partly, but even more generating capacity would be in private hands and hence charging within reason market price.

And not just fuel, its other things as well.

chrcoluk · 27 Jul 2022 at 21:46

silversurfer said:
Sound good, does this graph reflect the max capped price rising recently

Grafana

dashboards.energy-stats.uk

Tracker isnt fixed then, just capped like SVT perhaps ? I had a relative ask about Agile and Octopus cust service said it would cost massively more in higher rates over doing nothing with the capped svt rates. If your experience is entirely different I wonder why customer service is so adamant against allowing the switch in tariffs, is that just a one off and my relative should try again ?

Thats the new tracker that got launched a few days ago, sadly the tariffs I mentioned are now not available for switching and have been replaced with newer versions that have higher caps, the new gas tracker is capped at 16p, new agile at 55p and even doubled SC.
But even on the older versions, I had resistance when switching to agile, so I ended up doing my agile switch online.

New SVT is currently predicted to rise at nearly 80% which would be about a 13p unit rate for gas. Assuming its all going to unit costs and SC stays as it is.

You could try pulling a fast one though as apparently octopus are honouring the old tariffs if people pulled the trigger before 24 july but the switchover got delayed, so you could try emailing and say you tried to switch last week but something went wrong and see if someone gives you an invite link to the older tariffs. The cheaper agile is called 'Agile Octopus February 2018' and cheaper gas I am not sure but you can say specifically the capped 11p version. If they do by a miracle offer you it make sure it is the older version.

danlightbulb · 27 Jul 2022 at 21:46

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Partly, but even more generating capacity would be in private hands and hence charging within reason market price.

And not just fuel, its other things as well.

Dont get why it has to be this way. Why cant we have legislation in this country which ensures a cost + 5% (or whatever percentage is reasonable) profit margin for our own energy needs, and then what is left over can be sold to european or global market at whatever market price is. Its a fairly simple political solution. Water companies are regulated, yet still attract sufficient private investment.

silversurfer · 27 Jul 2022 at 21:48

Ok thanks, I think its pretty crap they tell people not to switch when it was the correct thing to do. I'll pass this advice on

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 27 Jul 2022 at 21:49

danlightbulb said:
Dont get why it has to be this way. Why cant we have legislation in this country which ensures a cost + 5% (or whatever percentage is reasonable) profit margin for our own energy needs, and then what is left over can be sold to european or global market at whatever market price is. Its a fairly simple political solution. Water companies are regulated, yet still attract sufficient private investment.

It doesn't have to be, its simple political choice

Foghorn Leghorn · 27 Jul 2022 at 21:52

silversurfer said:
Sound good, does this graph reflect the max capped price rising recently

Grafana

dashboards.energy-stats.uk

Tracker isnt fixed then, just capped like SVT perhaps ? I had a relative ask about Agile and Octopus cust service said it would cost massively more in higher rates over doing nothing with the capped svt rates. If your experience is entirely different I wonder why customer service is so adamant against allowing the switch in tariffs, is that just a one off and my relative should try again ?

You're too late for the Agile and Tracker tariffs now, they've both been updated this week. Customer services were correct, the prices are higher than the current cap but would have been well under the coming October cap.

jpaul · 27 Jul 2022 at 22:11

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Its ok you can make sure your not in fuel poverty by being in a band C house or better, forget ability to pay.

Sheff said:
It's one of those tricky ones where the measure is useful for a very specific purpose but maybe not for describing the situation we're in.

what is inappropriate about the measure, yes, needs to be updated as the cost of living projections change,
but otherwise ability to pay is encapsulated as minimum income the household is expected to have considering state allowances - unsurprisingly, there is method in the madness - jeez.
Martin Lewis (he's becoming like trump) puts out similar rhetoric, maybe he could explain details.

ie.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1056802/fuel-poverty-methodology-handbook-2022-lilee-with-projection.pdf