Soldato
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Oh I think he understands, I think he also just likes to troll the thread and send it in circles about once a week.
Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar
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Oh I think he understands, I think he also just likes to troll the thread and send it in circles about once a week.
They were using cluster bombs in 2014 prior to Russia invading on civilian areas, apparently that was also for their survival though.
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how many thousands and how likely?
This sounded plausible at the start of war, fresh off Bucha massacre
There have been hundreds of thousands dead since then, millions fled the country. You want to keep fighting "for survival"?
Russian invaded (en-masse) in February 2014. You earlier said that Ukraine used cluster munitions in February 2014... so at the time Russia were invading?
Round and round in circles we go, where we'll stop, nobody knows...
I think you're struggling to keep up a little here since you previously thought the Ukrainian government was backed by Russia in 2014, while simultaneously fighting Russian backed separatists, which makes absolutely zero sense.
Both sides have used cluster bombs, Ukraine used them as far back as 2014, Russia has also used them. Cluster bombs are bad because they kill children, it doesn't matter on who's territory or for what reason, in 50 years when a lot of us will be dead some kid will likely be blown up by actions taken today. This is bad and there isn't justification, the UK government agrees with this position and made it's views clear to Joe Biden.
[Facetious mode engaged]
They only kill Children huh?
[/Facetious mode disengaged]
Both sides are using whatever weapon they have at their disposal. Why are you always fighting over pointless topics?
Let me know how you feel about all the mines, anti-personnel devices and booby traps Russia are leaving that will also kill children (and others!). Some of those booby traps in childrens toys.
They only kill Children huh?
[/Facetious mode disengaged]
Both sides are using whatever weapon they have at their disposal. Why are you always fighting over pointless topics?
Let me know how you feel about all the mines, anti-personnel devices and booby traps Russia are leaving that will also kill children (and others!). Some of those booby traps in childrens toys.
I think you are deliberately diluting the argument in your typical anti-Ukraine / anti-West rhetoric and raising irrelevant points about the current war.
As opposed to all those adults only bombs, they could be using.
They are discouraged from use because they continue to kill after the conflict and cost time and money to remove them, which isn't your problem if it isn't your land. Which in this case it is.
I suspect the leftover unexploded cluster munitions (anyone know on average how many bomblets fail in a US shell?!) will represent but a small percentage compared to the mines/shells and whatever else is being used.
Difference is Ukraine will know in what areas they’ve deployed theirs. I also don’t think they’re using them for the lolz, they aren’t stupid. I’m sure they wish they don’t have to make use of them for those very reasons you point out. But here we are, the fact they are using them (effectively too) points to their necessity.
Any future deaths/maimings I know who I’m placing the blame with. Russia.
Wait, are you suggesting Russia is all massacred out? Or that after enough hundreds of thousands die it's ok to capitulate and just have a few more thousand be tortured and murdered during a brutal occupation, the likes of which we've seen the warm up acts for in other neighbours of Russia? If so, I think someone has broken into your account/mind. If not: phew.
"Let us occupy France please, there's only a 30% chance we'll murder a good percent of you. Go on, take a chance, what have you got to lose? You lost most of em early last century! The rest can just leave."
Soldato
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Yes very much this.
What Wimper87 fails to get is that these governments that leave unexploded ordinance on their own land for decades are just as culpable for deaths decades later.
There is no excuse for jus ignoring them. Its a slow process yes, but decades...
Ukraine are already demining parts of their country. Their farmers will be doing their bit as well.
Drones with infrared will be able to spot some as already discussed before. I am sure Ai will come into use as well at some point.
As far as I am concerned when some hostile nation is within your borders, killing your people, I would use anything at all to kill them.
Don't like it, go home.
It was pointed out that Ukraine is justified in using cluster bombs because Russia had also used them, I pointed out Ukraine actually started using them in 2014. I'm done with this ignorance for today.
Soldato
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Which part is wrong though?
Weapon transfers, including banned cluster munitions, spike in Ukraine
Arms and ammunition transfers to Ukraine have increased rapidly in recent months, alongside concerning reports of deliveries of banned cluster munitions, the UN’s top disarmament official told the Security Council on Thursday.news.un.org
Bold is mine - he is literally parroting the Kremlin
Soldato
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The part he marked in Bold I presume? If someone is dumb enough to claim that the Ukrainian army is made up of 'neo Nazi/fascists elements' is clearly talking out their behind. Every army in world has people with far right views as well far left, Ukraine is no different but that doesn't mean that don't deserve our help and support when a wrong is being done to them.
Soldato
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All bombs and missiles kill children, there is nothing special about cluster bombs other than the Russian version have a terrible rate of failure to explode. Those missiles and artillery Russian fires into populated areas kill children today.
The US isn't signed up to the agreement, neither is Ukraine. There is a shortage of artillery and the cluster artillery can make up that shortfall.
Its a war Roar, bad things happen when an invader like Russia wants to wipe out your country and culture and replace it with a Russian country and culture. You either roll over and die or you fight. You are still living in some delusional world where there is some peaceful way this can be ended, Putin has zero interest in ending this war and returning stolen lands.
Man of Honour
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In 50 years the land will be no more than a military buffer and that’s assuming Ukraine hold onto it.
Can you extend that beyond today by any chance?
Now WP isn't the gold standard by any stretch of the imagine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_cluster_munitions_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
Ukraine: March, Russia: February. (unless a quick skim read shows something else).
Please stop pretending it actually matters to you. They aren't banned by any of the warring factions.
Ukraine: March, Russia: February. (unless a quick skim read shows something else).
Please stop pretending it actually matters to you. They aren't banned by any of the warring factions.
This isn't true. Plenty of Western launched cluster bombs have had unacceptable levels of civilian deaths. One hundred and eight countries haven't ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions because they're silly little **********.
Are you really arguing ‘think of the children’ and pointing the finger at the Ukrainians after what Putin has made them endure?
Putin has mined an area close to the size of England and Wales and used hundreds of thousands of much more barbaric munitions.
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Soldato
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Bombs and missiles kill. US cluster bombs have something like a 2% failure rate. If they are used a lot then there will be a lot of civilian deaths both from their initial use and later from those 2% that didn't explode. Mines are way way worse than cluster bombs though. Its going to take years to clear Ukraine of those.
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