Executed by nitrogen gas

The thing is these people as horrible as they are may have children, wives, family still alive. Is it fair to end their life and take them away from their loved ones?

You then end up with 2 families grieving. I'm not saying they should go unpunished, and I can understand how passionate it is to want to do an eye for an eye.

As I said it it was a life of death situation in the heat of the moment you don't have time to be rational. But here you're effectively plotting the death of another person over a period of time. It's harrowing and a bleak way to view society.

I completely understand where the revenge aspect comes.from, but to me there's something just too dark about this way of dealing with things. It's just a shame the last port of call seems to be sanctioned murder.

I'm not trying to say I'm right in my view, I appear to be very much on the minority of the argument. It just doesn't feel right to me.
 
ubersonic said:
The ideas of going to prison or being executed if caught are both extremely good/effective deterrents, the fact they're not 100% effective doesn't detract from this.
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Just compare the homicide rates in the red states (mostly have the death penalty) in the USA to those in the blue states (mostly don't have the death penalty). The homicide rates in the red states are always significantly higher. There is no evidence that the death penalty works better as a deterrent than life imprisonment.
 
Semple said:
That was the argument for the lethal injection, which they were moving away from. Sedation drugs are significantly more available.
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While they may be significantly more available you still need a license to purchase. To get a license you need to disclose a reason. Soon as ‘death penalty’ is mentioned the pharma’s run a mile. At least as far as I understand it.
 
Efour said:
You obviously know a lot more about the subject than me can you point me to examples of 1 and 2 that have resulted in the death penalty?
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The penalty is irrelevant to the point - that despite already having a system that's supposed to only convict people who are definitely guilty, some innocent people are convicted. We don't even know how many because we only know how many were later able to prove their innocence.

The oft-claimed "only if they're definitely guilty" argument is a delusion and therefore an invalid argument. That's my point.

Everyone who advocates a death penalty is advocating that some innocent people be executed. If they claim otherwise, they are lying or deluded. They should have enough integrity to be honest about the results. The results in the real world, not a fantasy world containing an infallible criminal justice system.
 
mid_gen said:
What happened to Thou Shalt Not Kill? Seems pretty unambiguous to me.
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It's a dubious interpretation. The proscription is not on killing in general. It's on killing without the permission of the authorities. "You must not murder" would be a better interpretation, I think. The Abrahamic religions don't have a blanket prohibition on killing. They're awash with it, no problems with it at all. As long as the people in charge give it the OK.
 
Angilion said:
The penalty is irrelevant to the point - that despite already having a system that's supposed to only convict people who are definitely guilty, some innocent people are convicted. We don't even know how many because we only know how many were later able to prove their innocence.

The oft-claimed "only if they're definitely guilty" argument is a delusion and therefore an invalid argument. That's my point.

Everyone who advocates a death penalty is advocating that some innocent people be executed. If they claim otherwise, they are lying or deluded. They should have enough integrity to be honest about the results. The results in the real world, not a fantasy world containing an infallible criminal justice system.
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Ok again..
I accept all the "delusions" that have deluded me and in my delusional world I'll kill all the deluded criminals that admit to their crime, coercion or not.
I have enough integrity(?) To accept a few innocent people in America will die.... because of racism or corruption. And I'm so fine with that because it's miles away from the civilised country I live in and it's their choice and I hope they change their views one day.
 
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Maple Leaf said:
Just compare the homicide rates in the red states (mostly have the death penalty) in the USA to those in the blue states (mostly don't have the death penalty).
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You're drawing a false equivalence, the fact that most states with a death penalty have higher homicide rates than most states without is due to many factors specific to those states (education, unemployment, criminality, quality/funding of law enforcement, etc). The fact that most of the ones with higher homicide rates have the death penalty is because they're the ones with higher homicide rates, and they would be much higher if not for the deterrent.

Better evidence to look at for proof the deterrent works would be the countless instances of criminals in non DP states who knew they were going to prison for life if caught attempting to fight/kill/etc their way out of the situation as it can't get worse, contrast that with the instances of similar criminals in DP states who knew they were going to prison for life if caught surrendering (or at least not trying to shoot their way out) as it can get worse.

A good example would be an instance of a criminal surprising the cops looking for them and having them dead to rights before they could even unholster, then dropping their gun because they knew they couldn't escape without using it and that would be their end. In a non-DP state that criminal would have blasted away and escaped into the night as an extra couple life sentences wouldn't make a difference.

Tefal said:
They're terrible deterrents, places that have horrible punishments tend to have worse crime rates than those that don't.

I think psychologically it's because criminals make thier judgement on "will I be caught" not "what sentence will I get".
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Nope, see above.

As to your second point, in the UK the penalty for joyriding is up to six month in prison, do you really think that if that was lowered to a maximum of 16 hours community service or raised to 15 years that the amount of joyriding committed each year would not increase/decrease? Of course it would, because possible consequences are of concern to the majority of criminals. Hence why the death penalty works and has always worked as a deterrent, just not in every case because not all killers/rapists will care, but it's success/effectiveness is undeniable/proven.
 
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Per many studies it just doesn't work as anything near a deterrent. Just keep killing anyway, make MAGA and you guys feel good. *****...
 
ubersonic said:
You're drawing a false equivalence, the fact that most states with a death penalty have higher homicide rates than most states without is due to many factors specific to those states (education, unemployment, criminality, quality/funding of law enforcement, etc).
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Are you really saying that Red states have such relatively bad education, unemployment, criminality, quality/funding of law enforcement etc compared to their Blue state counterparts that they are always going to be more violent? If so, that's a pretty damning indictment of the Republican Party and its policies.

ubersonic said:
The fact that most of the ones with higher homicide rates have the death penalty is because they're the ones with higher homicide rates, and they would be much higher if not for the deterrent.
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You can only know that if the death penalty was suspended in a Red state for a significant period of time (when other socio-economic variables remained the same) and the homicide rate suddenly increased significantly for that period. Convicted murderers in the USA often spend decades on Death Row, sometimes over 25 years. They could easily die of natural causes, violence or suicide during such long periods of detention. Is it really any more horrible than knowing that you are going to die in prison in 30 or 40 years time (if you're lucky enough to live that long)?

ubersonic said:
Better evidence to look at for proof the deterrent works would be the countless instances of criminals in non DP states who knew they were going to prison for life if caught attempting to fight/kill/etc their way out of the situation as it can't get worse, contrast that with the instances of similar criminals in DP states who knew they were going to prison for life if caught surrendering (or at least not trying to shoot their way out) as it can get worse.
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Or maybe the Police in Red states just have a more formidable reputation than their Blue state counterparts as they are more used to dealing with serious violence, or they would shoot dead someone who had just killed one of their colleagues on general principle rather than arresting them (and the local crooks are well aware of this).

ubersonic said:
A good example would be an instance of a criminal surprising the cops looking for them and having them dead to rights before they could even unholster, then dropping their gun because they knew they couldn't escape without using it and that would be their end. In a non-DP state that criminal would have blasted away and escaped into the night as an extra couple life sentences wouldn't make a difference.
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But if an armed robber (for example) had the drop on a couple of cops like that surely he would seek to tie them up, handcuff them, or immobilise them by shooting them in the legs/feet so they couldn't pursue him and then make his escape, rather than either killing them or surrendering? Or does just wounding a cop (without the intent to kill) carry the death penalty in Red states too?
 
Mujja said:
If there is no question the person 100% committed the crime then I don't see an issue if the execution causes them a few seconds of pain before death. They had more notice and time to prepare than their victims.
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If there was no question then they wouldn't be found guilty. You can't have 'more guilty'. You're pretty much found guilty or not guilty. This is the issue, if two people commit a crime, there is just enough evidence to convict one but the other has stacks of evidence (video, witnesses etc) then the punishment will be the same, they were both found guilty despite their being a bit of doubt surrounding the first person.

This '100% sure' thing isn't a thing.
 
moon man said:
Do you think that there is an element of punishment about these executions rather than just simply killing these people, wouldn't it be more humane to put them under general anesthetic and then do whatever it takes medically to end a life or do the horrendous crimes most have committed means its well deserved, both the wait and a (probably) nasty end ,what do i think ? probably punishment intended ,think i would need the facts of the crime, strength of the conviction to say if deserved or not

BBC link
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I do wonder if there is to some extent like why not laughing gas, morphine/heroin etc. then whatever else and also some misplaced squeamishness in that some more efficient methods are seen as too repulsive... like shooting someone in the head with a .50Cal or just chopping their head off in a guillotine.

I'm generally opposed to the death penalty not because I'm opposed to murderers being executed but more because of the risk of an innocent person being mistakenly executed. But if the US and others are going to do it then it should be done as humanely as possible.

Irish_Tom said:
I had assumed this Nitrogen method was similar, but clearly not based on the reports of seizures and convulsions.

*For what it’s worth, the guy who forgot to turn on his oxygen survived. He was bloody lucky it happened in a swimming pool and that he was surrounded by experienced and well-trained divers.
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Yikes - I've never used a rebreather but when I dived with a BSAC club we'd always have a buddy and go through literally everything super-autistically with that buddy before getting into the water, like literally showing each bit of kit and that it's working so two people are checking each other off... seems OTT/silly but it saves screw ups like that!

I'd have the same assumption though, surely death by asphyxiation without the CO2 buildup should be painless, but clearly, the seizures are an issue.

I think current anesthetics are banned but going old school with laughing gas, heroin etc.. doesn't require breaching contracts with EU pharma companies. Maybe instead of nitrogen asphyxiation, they could look at carbon monoxide asphyxiation.

I think part of the issue is that new protocols are expensive and go through a load of legal challenges.
 
One More Solo said:
This information is freely available, perhaps educate yourself rather than idly speculating? Case in point, one of the drugs most commonly used in general anaesthesia is made in Italy and the manufacturer won't export to the US for use in capital punishment.
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Silly me, I thought this was a forum. You know, a place for discussion! I did make it pretty clear that I didn't know, and I was speculating, so why the hostility? Especially, when it seems that the speculation was correct.
 
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bazza64 said:
Per many studies it just doesn't work as anything near a deterrent. Just keep killing anyway, make MAGA and you guys feel good. *****...
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Yes, I have heard that.

I firmly believe it's about revenge.

It's actually quite shocking that America has the audacity to behave all aloof when they still have barbaric practices like that.

I'm not saying America is worse than anywhere else, just that you kinda expect them to be better.
 
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