Soldato
Obesity
- Thread starter Uther
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Caporegime
That's his point. B4 you had to have a decent educated opinion. Nowadays you can just shout loud and continuously until you get ascended to a pedestal.
It Also helps morons find similar morons and feel clever together that their terrible lifestyle choices are actually really good.
It Also helps morons find similar morons and feel clever together that their terrible lifestyle choices are actually really good.
Intermittently is not the same as months, years, decades without pause though.
What is the science behind this...I understand if a certain food makes people generally feel hungry, but because of an imposed calorie intake limit, the fact that you can't eat any more makes the entire process unbearable.
What I don't understand is that if you stick to a 1500 calorie diet that included carbs, your weight quickly plateaued, and yet if you change to a different food intake you can continually eat 2000 calories a day and lose weight.
Is it simply that more of the calories of a particular diet are not actually absorbed by the body and go straight out the other end ?, if not what is happening that allows a diet to increase calories that the body absorbs, and yet allows the body to lose weight ? Is it an implication that Keto just makes you body much more inefficient ?
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Organisms natural reaction to reduced calories is lowering basal metabolic rate. I think mainly by creating less heat.
You may say organism becomes more efficient, but for weight loss its a negative
Especially coupled with the other natural reaction - increased constant craving for more food
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Sorry to interrupt but as a fellow carnivore I believe that a lot of this does come down to insulin resistance. From the information I have seen a lot of it comes down to not all calories are created equal. Protein and fat from animal sources are also far more nutritionally dense and it is by far more bio available to us.
I know of someone who is now carnivore who had his colon removed after being a vegan. He physically sees what comes out the other end and has experimented with this. As a carnivore, not only is the amount of waste drastically reduced there's never anything even remotely undigested. Where as he can physically see things he's eaten when he's added plant matter etc
Did you have to post this while I'm eating,lol
Yes...
It's really sad overweight is being seen as in some cases "positive".
Its not so bad in private healthcare.. You pay for it. But with state care it puts a heavy (lol) burden on everyone.
Its gotten to the point you can't really openly say obese = bad. Or at least it nearly is.
We certainly shouldn't be bullying people for it individually.. But equally it should Never be promoted as "healthy"
Its not so bad in private healthcare.. You pay for it. But with state care it puts a heavy (lol) burden on everyone.
Its gotten to the point you can't really openly say obese = bad. Or at least it nearly is.
We certainly shouldn't be bullying people for it individually.. But equally it should Never be promoted as "healthy"
I generally have quite a high metabolic rate.. Ie I'm inefficient.
I run hot.
I can't categorically say that's true.. I may just feel hot more.. But I can certainly get away with eating more than I should.
However my body/mind is a bit odd (so gf says) in that if I eat a lot once day.. The next day (sometimes the entire day) I wont be hungry.
I ate a 40cm pizza in Norway the night before traveling back. I ate the whole thing.
Next day I didn't eat until midnight. This wasn't fighting hunger. I just wasn't hungry. This does help me not get fat.
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No thought for more delicate stomachs
I'm not saying it is or isn't more efficient, I'm asking is that the process, a body on a keto diet is less efficient ?, if not what is the science that results in a keto-dieting human being able to intake 2000 calories and lose weight, whilst a non keto-dieting human eating 1500 calories a day does not lose weight ?, as per the poster that I originally replied to.
Reading your answer again it appears that Keto results in more heat loss. I guess that means the heart beats somewhat quicker, respiration system works a little harder etc ? Could see the advantage way back in having extra heat or whatever, but just like food is a commodity for 1st world, so is heat in terms of clothing,duvets and heating systems etc. So Keto is indeed a less efficient way for the body to process food in the modern world.
What I would say is that a solution to overweight/obesity that requires people to consume more calories overall to maintain weight compared to what is the previous norm,whilst it might work well for the individual, is at odds with a world that has an increasing population and decreasing food sources.
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Caporegime
I have noticed that people who are on Keto don't mention the calories they consume on here and since they naturally eat less...I suspect they just consume fewer calories as a result anyway as protein is a hunger suppressant. The picture they paint in the last week is that they can eat a whole cow and don't get fat. In reality that isn't true.
Say if you normally have a Sunday roast, now you just eat the roast on its own....that by default is fewer calories. So naturally they are eating fewer calories.
Then, I've seen a few people here mention they fast whilst on keto...if I were on keto and losing weight consistently, or maintaining my ideal weight on it...Why on earth would I fast? (In before you go....Ramadan or I am David Blaine!) The answer is that they put on weight whilst on keto...They don't mention this, but read between the lines you can see that is what is happening. Keto isn't working, so just stop eating to lose more weight.
Say if you normally have a Sunday roast, now you just eat the roast on its own....that by default is fewer calories. So naturally they are eating fewer calories.
Then, I've seen a few people here mention they fast whilst on keto...if I were on keto and losing weight consistently, or maintaining my ideal weight on it...Why on earth would I fast? (In before you go....Ramadan or I am David Blaine!) The answer is that they put on weight whilst on keto...They don't mention this, but read between the lines you can see that is what is happening. Keto isn't working, so just stop eating to lose more weight.
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Soldato
- Joined
- 30 Nov 2011
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as others have already mentioned, but I can expand a little - for example protein is "thermogenic" which basically means processing it actually raises your metabolism and protein itself requires about 30% of its own calorific value in order to be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis (you "lose less calories" when its used directly for muscle protein synthesis, but that translates in to builds more muscle, so this is "good" weight gain rather than fat)
also, the human body only consumes/processes fat in the presence of bile and your body produces a limited amount of bile so excess consumption of fat just causes more to be excreted - on carnivore you have to find the balance for yourself between too little = constipation and too much fat = diarhea
your body can also slow down its digestion process, so we are incredibly time efficient at processing carbs in to glucose, but protein takes longer to digest, so if I eat 3000 calories for 4-5 days I will often be not very hungry or even not eat at all for 1 day (which because I usually eat around the middle of the day translates to 48 hours without food), or like yesterday we sat down to sunday lunch (roast chicken) so I ate socially, but looking back I only had about 400 calories yesterday.
When you eat carbs repeatedly throughout the day, you spike insulin and your body basically goes in to "fat storage" mode for about 4 hours which just prevents you from accessing fat stores for energy - if its already converted all the excess glucose to fat and you haven't eaten again then it has no option but to "make do" with glycogen stores which then puts you in to a sort of "starvation mode" to make this last as long as possible so what they call your Base Metabolic Rate falls (I found this also made me feel really tired and lethargic and even had bouts of dizziness when trying to do something like walk up stairs)
I'm not a doctor, or professor or anything like that so this is basically my layman's understanding from reading keto/carnivore doctors that are actually working with patients and starting up studies
So even just on a basic CICO level, eating this way uses more calories because its "less efficient" to convert protein to glucose than other sugars, not all fat is absorbed and it keeps your metabolism higher than eating a carb-based-calorie-restriction diet
as an aside;
once I lost more fat and I feel like I've improved my nutrition (due to all the other health problems that have also resolved) I am able to do more excercise now too, so that is definitely a factor, whether or not people are willing to believe this is directly diet related or not, but I really feel that it is.
I've definitely experienced oxalate dumping, so I would say my old "healthy" diet attempts also had issues that I wasn't aware of at the time.
protein causes an insulin "bump", it kicks you out of ketosis, even doing a keto type diet you should be consuming enough protein more or less every day to take you out of ketosis for many hours, no one is "in ketosis" for months years or decades, there was that one guy Angus Barbieri who was under doctors care and did a 1 year fast, but that isn't what is recommended for most people, you are literally arguin over whether its better to be in ketosis for 12 hours a day or 14-20 hours a day, its basically nothing
I've acutally explained all of this to you and this is a gross misrepresentation of what I said
I'm 69kg now, but I lost a lot of muscle tone doing calorie restriction so I'm actively lifting weights etc trying to re-tone - to do so I need to eat 200g+ of protein or I get fatigued, I don't lose weight but I also don't gain any fat % (scales with fat % built in)
I do however still have "a belly" which I would like to continue to trim down, according to the scales I'm about 18% body fat which is still too high (and these scales are a bit notorious for being wrong on the low sid)
I've fallen in to an eating patern that works for me because I'm actively trying to gain weight (muscle) whilst continuing to lose fat - bulk and cut or even lean bulk are common "mainstream" eating patterns, even the 5:2 diet has a lot of credible people supporting it and I'm just doing a variation on those
Fasting also has a load of other benefits like autophagy (which helps with saggy skin which is a pretty big deal when you are losing as much weight as someone like me), and it raises growth hormone so you can capitalise on this by excercising fasted and then having a big protein rich meal
I've also walked you through the reasons why eating a low carb diet with more calories = less drop in BMR (which there is loads of data on BMR dropping on calorie restriction and the need to do refeeds and so on, just google it mate)
I'm not actually "doing keto" as a weight loss diet, I am a carnivore, I eat mostly meat because its the healthiest way of eating for me (based on extensive experimentation on myself), but my diet isn't trying to be "ketogenic"
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@anybird123
Thanks for coming back, my take from that is you are indeed saying that a protein heavy diet is effectively in pure terms inefficient, i.e. it takes more energy to process protein than carbs, the body works harder to get those calories. In addition some calories from a fat rich diet don't get processed because of lack of processing bile, and hence some of those go straight out. So if most of your input calories are proteins and fats, then your body is effectively seeing less net calories compared to a carb heavy diet of the same number of calories.
At least it explains why a 2K calorie protein diet can lose weight when a 1500 "normal" diet can not in your case.
I have always assumed that calories are not made equal, I had assumed that some food sources, the calories were just plain harder for the body to extract than others, but in a different way my assumption was kinda correct.
A point I added onto my prior post is that a world with increasing population and decreasing food sources which also has 1/2 of its population overweight, probably will not find it's answer by following a diet that requires more calorie intake
Thanks for coming back, my take from that is you are indeed saying that a protein heavy diet is effectively in pure terms inefficient, i.e. it takes more energy to process protein than carbs, the body works harder to get those calories. In addition some calories from a fat rich diet don't get processed because of lack of processing bile, and hence some of those go straight out. So if most of your input calories are proteins and fats, then your body is effectively seeing less net calories compared to a carb heavy diet of the same number of calories.
At least it explains why a 2K calorie protein diet can lose weight when a 1500 "normal" diet can not in your case.
I have always assumed that calories are not made equal, I had assumed that some food sources, the calories were just plain harder for the body to extract than others, but in a different way my assumption was kinda correct.
A point I added onto my prior post is that a world with increasing population and decreasing food sources which also has 1/2 of its population overweight, probably will not find it's answer by following a diet that requires more calorie intake
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Soldato
- Joined
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I can see where you're coming from, however the stats don't suggest we are suffering from a lack of calories worldwide as we are on track for a 51% obese world by 2035 (and the stats for all the most populous countries/land masses puts it about 60% overweight already)
I've said this several times already, I'm not trying to cure the world of obesity, I have seen several people on here comment they struggle with being overweight / health / lack of excercise and so I only started to comment because I've fixed all these issues for myself, so on an individual basis this info might help, or it might not, I'm not the boss of the world
There's a reason why carnivore and keto is gaining popularity, because those of us who have been desperate enough to give it a try are sharing our experiences. It might fly in the face of conventional wisdom but our personal experiences are entirely valid and research and scientific studies are coming for carnivore just like keto. Can't find the link right now but there was a study on keto for alzheimers that was found to be vastly better at treating it than any medication on the market.
I know people will say, yeah that's what the vegans say, and they're right. Removing processed crap from your diet is going to be better for you buy the difference between vegans and carnivores is that they need to supplement. We don't.
Indeed, that point was tangental. I appreciate your info and you've help me understand something that I couldn't see the logic in. I hadn't actually consider the notion or benefits of the body being inefficient in dealing with certain forms of calories.
So question regarding long term keto type diet. Assume that at some point, people get to a normal weight, having been overweight. Do you see yourself on this diet from now on (albeit it adjusting somewhat as you see fit ?). If so is there some conversation to be had that once you are at a "good" weight, whether it is still best for you to be on a diet that requires your body to work that bitr harder processing food on an ongoing basis, i.e. digestive system and hence heart and respiration must be elevated when processing protein heavy diet. Over a day, I wonder what % "harder" we are talking about, raise heartrate by a few percent..more...less ?, is there any data on that that your seen ? I'm 60 yr old, so once you get to a certain age there are various other factors to possibly dial in.
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Soldato
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Ive seen some data on high protein low carb being used in treating dementia as well, I guess not really surprising as dementia and Alzheimer's are very similar.
They also found a high coincidence of the chemical that's released by bones during osteoporosis in the brains of Alzheimer's patients. High protein diets have also been linked with helping prevent osteoporosis.
Caporegime
Yet you have also said in this very thread that doctors "pushing your addictive substances on you" (with the typo included), you are simply demonising carbs, sugar, fruit and vegetables with these words.
I dislike that people are demonising fruit and vegetables, what is your agenda by using words like that? and even the idea of a balanced diet which would include these "addictive substances"? Our life expectancy has got longer than ever before, the longest life expectancy population in the world do not eat like you do (The Med or Japanese. This statistic alone blows all studies/papers out of the water. Whatever paper, or studies you read, I think this is 1 fact that trumps them all and if it is any advice is given, that should be the recommendation if one has to recommend a diet surely? Surely the goal is a healthier, long life. Not a skinny, possibly shorter one.
We all know fibre is important, we all know vitamins are vital, and if I have to pop any kind of pills to make up for the missing nutrients. That is by definition it is not a balanced diet. I don’t care how healthy you think you are.
Then there is the food, good food, enjoy your food. I don’t want to demonise my food. I look forward to my meals. I want to look forward to good food, ALL food, all varieties of cuisines the world has to offer. By demonising carbs, vegetables, fruit etc is wrong. Demonise modern processed food, processed sugar instead, don’t demonise food groups, don’t demonise whole foods, natural foods.
There is NOTHING wrong at all in eating a balanced diet with includes fruit and vegetables, or what you call "addictive substances". What is wrong is when one over consume them, or anything in this world for that matter.
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