Obesity

[andybird123]

Indeed, that point was tangental. I appreciate your info and you've help me understand something that I couldn't see the logic in. I hadn't actually consider the notion or benefits of the body being inefficient in dealing with certain forms of calories.

So question regarding long term keto type diet. Assume that at some point, people get to a normal weight, having been overweight. Do you see yourself on this diet from now on (albeit it adjusting somewhat as you see fit ?). If so is there some conversation to be had that once you are at a "good" weight, whether it is still best for you to be on a diet that requires your body to work that bitr harder processing food on an ongoing basis, i.e. digestive system and hence heart and respiration must be elevated when processing protein heavy diet. Over a day, I wonder what % "harder" we are talking about, raise heartrate by a few percent..more...less ?, is there any data on that that your seen ? I'm 60 yr old, so once you get to a certain age there are various other factors to possibly dial in.

As I said to Ray above, I'm no longer on "keto", I don't aim to be in ketosis or extend through diet on a daily basis, I'm eating plenty of meat to make sure I get enough protein to support my exercise/muscle gaining aims. Lots of people find carnivore through keto, but they aren't necessarily the same, though obviously you can use carnivore to lose weight, you don't have to, I prefer to fast for fat loss and optimise diet for long term health.
Fasting also promotes many positive effects in its own right and I actually enjoy doing it so yeah both carnivore and fasting will be a long-term thing, it's not a weight loss diet, it's a lifestyle choice that prevents me falling back in to bad habits.

It isn't "working harder", it's purely a chemical process in your blood because your body has no way of storing excess protein, so whatever it can't use for muscle protein synthesis is converted to glucose, it has no effect on your digestive system which is self regulating. When protein is used directly for muscle they assign a certain calorific value to that process, when it's converted to glucose and then fat, 1g of protein produces less fat than 1g of carbs, even though they assign 4 calories to each on food charts.
Calories and the way they are calculated are so general that they only really "work" as intended in a very general "normal diet" type situation, there are so many confounders that you can make them look broken as soon as you step away from the "average" diet.

I wear a Fitbit and my resting and AVG heart rate has dropped since I went carnivore.

 

[andybird123]

We all know fibre is important, we all know vitamins are vital, and if I have to pop any kind of pills to make up for the missing nutrients. That is by definition it is not a balanced diet. I don’t care how healthy you think you are

I don't take any supplements, I have my blood tested every 6 months to a year, all of my vitamins and minerals have improved since I went carnivore. Beef is the most nutrient dense food in existence and it contains everything the human needs.

The other nonsense I've already responded to, demonstrably false.

I'm writing on my phone, so if the occasional typo from autocorrect messes you up that badly I suggest you stop reading anything I post, I think youll be healthier for it.

 

[Raymond Lin]

I don't take any supplements, I have my blood tested every 6 months to a year, all of my vitamins and minerals have improved since I went carnivore. Beef is the most nutrient dense food in existence and it contains everything the human needs.

The other nonsense I've already responded to, demonstrably false.

I'm writing on my phone, so if the occasional typo from autocorrect messes you up that badly I suggest you stop reading anything I post, I think youll be healthier for it.

Everything? That is nonsense, Beef has no vitamin C, zero fibre.

How can anyone take you seriously when you write nonsenes like that?

FoodData Central

fdc.nal.usda.gov

(yes I know you can find 3rd party links where it says beef has Vit C...but I am linking USDA, not some random sites)

 

[andybird123]

Everything? That is nonsense, Beef has no vitamin C, zero fibre.

How can anyone take you seriously when you write nonsenes like that?

FoodData Central

fdc.nal.usda.gov

(yes I know you can find 3rd party links where it says beef has Vit C...but I am linking USDA, not some random sites)

How long do you have to go without vitamin C to get scurvy?
Spoiler alert, I don't have scurvy. (bleeding gums is actually another thing I no longer get on this diet)

The reason other sources say it does have vitamin C in beef is because it actually does. You need much less vitamin C because carbs compete with vitamin C for entry to cells, so carbs increase your requirement for dietary vit C. Low carbists don't need as much so the amount in meat is fine.
Liver has more vitamin C than muscle meat, I do sometimes eat liver (pate) but equally I know plenty of people who don't like organs and never eat any but also do not have any deficiencies.

In 1807 Napoleon's surgeon-in-chief noticed that wounded soldiers who ate horse meat scavenged from the battlefield not only thrived, but also became immune to scurvy. He gave orders for horse soup to be prepared, and served in hospitals.

Meat used to be used to treat scurvy.

If you are cherry picking sources that say meat has no vitamin C then you're a lost cause mate, absolutely demonstrably with so many people doing carnivore, none of whom have scurvy and with multiple sources confirming that meat does have some vitamin C in it, you're just displaying how utterly biased you and your sources are. You are so far in the hole that youre never going to find your way out.

In 1807 Napoleon's surgeon-in-chief noticed that wounded soldiers who ate horse meat scavenged from the battlefield not only thrived, but also became immune to scurvy. He gave orders for horse soup to be prepared, laced with gunpowder, and served in hospitals

I've already done fibre to death so not responding to that further.

 

[jpaul]

We all know fibre is important, we all know vitamins are vital, and if I have to pop any kind of pills to make up for the missing nutrients. That is by definition it is not a balanced diet. I don’t care how healthy you think you are.

fibre - if for nothing else than correct lower bowel behaviour, reducing bowel cancer risk; higher protein input on usa business trips highlights that to me.

Also a 200g/day high quality protein diet, sounds £££ - 1lb/steak/day ?

 

[Raymond Lin]

How long do you have to go without vitamin C to get scurvy?
Spoiler alert, I don't have scurvy.

The reason other sources say it does have vitamin C in beef is because it actually does. You need much less vitamin C because carbs compete with vitamin C for entry to cells, so carbs increase your requirement for dietary vit C. Low carbists don't need as much so the amount in meat is fine.


Meat used to be used to treat scurvy.

In 1807, people's average life expectancy was like 50-60. If you are following the science from 1807 then I don't know what to tell you...these days, people eat an orange, it is much cheaper than eating beef.

My point is that your statement that Beef has everything the body needs is 100% wrong. If it is true, eat nothing but beef for the next 10 years, see how long you'll live.

Honestly, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously with lies like that.

 

[andybird123]

In 1807, people's average life expectancy was like 50-60. If you are following the science from 1807 then I don't know what to tell you...these days, people eat an orange, it is much cheaper than eating beef.

My point is that your statement that Beef has everything the body needs is 100% wrong. If it is true, eat nothing but beef for the next 10 years, see how long you'll live.

Honestly, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously with lies like that.

​

Vitamin C in Meat​

According to the USDA, meat flesh contains no vitamin C. However, this is factually incorrect and based on the default practice of the UDSA to fill in vitamin C amounts in muscle meat as “assumed to be zero.” This is an egregious error, considering they test for nearly every other micronutrient [19].

Recent (2007) research published in Meat Science Journal confirms that fresh beef has approximately 1.6 mcg/g of vitamin C in grain-fed meat, and 2.56 mcg/g in grass-fed meat. [20] [1]

On a carnivore diet, if you’re eating 1000 grams of meat, or 2.2 lbs per day, you will be consuming 2.56 mg and 1.6 mg of vitamin C, respectively.

I'm not "following science from 1807", you stated there was no vitamin C in beef, I posted a link showing that meat is a successful treatment for scurvy BECAUSE IT HAS vitamin C

I've done 8 months so far of eating 95%+ meat only, my vitamin and mineral levels have all improved

Some people do do just beef, I like slightly more variety than that (I like a bit of pork, chicken, eggs etc.) though I know I'm probably negatively affecting my health with pork and chicken as its hard to get hold of "naturally" fed pork and chicken and they are fed on corn and soy which is not great, so probably 6 days a week I do grass fed beef.
Loads of people doing just beef though, so demonstrably its not wrong, you're just biased.

 

[Raymond Lin]

​

I'm not "following science from 1807", you stated there was no vitamin C in beef, I posted a link showing that meat is a successful treatment for scurvy BECAUSE IT HAS vitamin C

I've done 8 months so far of eating 95%+ meat only, my vitamin and mineral levels have all improved

Some people do do just beef, I like slightly more variety than that (I like a bit of pork, chicken, eggs etc.) though I know I'm probably negatively affecting my health with pork and chicken as its hard to get hold of "naturally" fed pork and chicken and they are fed on corn and soy which is not great, so probably 6 days a week I do grass fed beef.

I also posted a link from USDA, does that not count? you posted a link from Doctorkiltz.com ? I actually found that, and IGNORED it, why? because I tend not to believe links that suit my agenda, rather from more reputable sources.

p.s. "Dr. Robert Kiltz is the Founder and Director of CNY Fertility, one of the largest and most innovative fertility practices in the country, with over 60% of its patients traveling from out of state or overseas to be seen." LOL Why are you using that site as a source? He is 1 guy, USDA is more than 1 guy.

 

[andybird123]

I also posted a link from USDA, does that not count? you posted a link from Doctorkiltz.com ? I actually found that, and IGNORED it, why? because I tend not to believe links that suit my agenda, rather from more reputable sources.

the same data from the source study;

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0309174006002701

So no, USDA does not count because anything below a certain amount, they make it zero, but it isn't actually zero - its the same with american food packaging and why american food is that much worse, if sugar is less than 1g, so 0.9g they are allowed to mark it zero on the packaging even when its not zero

Just think about it logically, animals need vitamin C, they contain vitamin C, so why would it all simply disappear when their dead? it doesn't make sense does it, of course cows contain vitamin c, just like we do

 

[Efour]

Meat Science

 

[Ayahuasca]

Meat Science

 

[Raymond Lin]

the same data from the source study;

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0309174006002701

So no, USDA does not count because anything below a certain amount, they make it zero, but it isn't actually zero - its the same with american food packaging and why american food is that much worse, if sugar is less than 1g, so 0.9g they are allowed to mark it zero on the packaging even when its not zero

Just think about it logically, animals need vitamin C, they contain vitamin C, so why would it all simply disappear when their dead? it doesn't make sense does it, of course cows contain vitamin c, just like we do

Did you know that our bodies do not store Vit C? Look it up.

Where do our Vit C go? We are not even dead. It doesn't make sense, does it?

 

[andybird123]

Did you know that our bodies do not store Vit C? Look it up.

Where do our Vit C go? We are not even dead. It doesn't make sense, does it?

you obviously haven;t looked at the link I posted where they tested and show the amount of vitamin C in meat
your undertanding of biology is very wonky, putting things in big capitals doesn't make you less wrong

Vitamin C in human health and disease is still a mystery ? An overview - PMC

Ascorbic acid is one of the important water soluble vitamins. It is essential for collagen, carnitine and neurotransmitters biosynthesis. Most plants and animals synthesize ascorbic acid for their own requirement. However, apes and humans can not ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The average adult has a body pool of 1.2–2.0 g of ascorbic acid that may be maintained with 75 mg/d of ascorbic acid.

When they say "store" they mean in the way we store fat, vitamin D can be stored in fat.
We also can't "store" protein, excess protein is converted in to glucose and stored as fat, but we need to eat protein every day to enable muscle building, but that also doesn't mean our muscles don't contain protein just because we don't "store" it.

 

[alec]

Guys please, can't you find more productive discussion than trying to prove that humans can't survive on keto? Go argue with the eskimos

 

[Nutty667]

for me, it was carbs in all forms then drive cravings for sugary things (not even just sugary things, anything carb based, chips, bread, pasta, all of it, it all gets converted to glucose when you eat it), so basically yes, in effect its the same end result

I can walk you through the interactions of insulin, leptin, ghrelin and dopamine if you really want

when the doc keeps telling you you should be eating 75% calories from carb based foods then yes that is a real problem

This is a big problem in the NHS. A lot of GP's are not nutritionists, and when you look at the Eat Well guide it lists something like 1/3rd of intake as carbs.
People like Dr Unwin (lowcarbgp on twitter) has spent years getting NHS advise changed, but it hasn't filtered through to all doctors yet.

They would rather prescribe medication than tell you to stop eating carbs. Very odd.

 

[Raymond Lin]

you obviously haven;t looked at the link I posted where they tested and show the amount of vitamin C in meat
your undertanding of biology is very wonky, putting things in big capitals doesn't make you less wrong

Your understanding of our bodies is also wrong, human bodies CANNOT store Vit C. That is a fact. Which puts your logic of "just like we do" completely incorrect.

And where do the Vit C in our bodies go? Call my understanding of biology wonky when you got something that basic completely wrong. We cannot store Vit.C.

Guys please, can't you find more productive discussion than trying to prove that humans can't survive on keto? Go argue with the eskimos

They eat the whole animal, intestine, blood, brain, liver. The whole thing...not just steak. They also eat Whale...skin and brain, raw. Nobody here is eating whale, nevermind raw cow, the whole cow.

How do Inuits get their five-a-day?

www.sciencefocus.com

 

[dowie]

This is a big problem in the NHS. A lot of GP's are not nutritionists, and when you look at the Eat Well guide it lists something like 1/3rd of intake as carbs.
People like Dr Unwin (lowcarbgp on twitter) has spent years getting NHS advise changed, but it hasn't filtered through to all doctors yet.

They would rather prescribe medication than tell you to stop eating carbs. Very odd.

Anyone can call themselves a nutritionist, it's dietitians that are the regulated professionals in that domain.

There are all sorts of diets that can work, that someone has found success with a low or no-carb diet doesn't imply that carbs are all bad, others can find success with a very carb-heavy diet too - like a potato diet! https://www.pcrm.org/news/health-nu...sugar-control-overnight-those-type-2-diabetes

What gets silly is that people get religious about some particular diet and then seem to dismiss anything that doesn't fit within it, there's nothing wrong with eating say 1/3 carbs within a healthy, balanced diet. That some people have found success with some niche low-carb approach doesn't negate basic healthy eating.

 

[andybird123]

Your understanding of our bodies is also wrong, human bodies CANNOT store Vit C.

I already posted a link showing how you're wrong, we contain up to 2g of vitamin C at all times

Your understanding of the word "store" isnin error

 

[alec]

Nobody here is eating whale

Arg, you don't need to take everything so literally

There are demonstrably people who lose excessive weight and improve their wellbeing on keto. No scandals with sudden death or huge health damage.
Is it directly because of consuming low carbs? Or maybe just because it automatically reduces UPF? Remains to be studied.
But why is it so improtant for you to prove keto-like diets are bad?

 

[Roar87]

Wouldn't even bother arguing with someone who doesn't think keto works and is effective in 2024, they're beyond help.