Challenging a speed camera ticket due to no "change of speed" sign

[SheffMan]

I got done for doing 36mph in a 30 zone, on a dual carriageway with a central reservation (here) ! It really annoyed me actually because I never deliberately break the speed limit, it was an accident because it was in Bournemouth. I live in Sheffield and therefore I am unfamiliar with the roads and constantly changing speed limits down there.
I could not understand how I got caught out so I have subsequently spent much time examining Google streetview and there does not appear to be on of those large "change of speed limit sign" down to the lower 30 from the higher 40 limit it undoubtedly was just 200 yards up the road on the other side of the roundabout !

A couple of questions to the esteemed members of this forum if I may :

1 - Is the absence of said "change of speed limit sign" sufficient grounds to challenge the "offence". Particularly because I am not from the area and therefore I cannot know what the speed limit is other than from the signage.

2 - Even if it is grounds must I attend the court in person as I live a 5 hour drive from Bournemouth ? If I do have to attend, which is obviously impractical, that's even more unfair to "non local" people as I effectively have to plead "guilty".

 

[Rroff]

Where were you coming from/going to on that road? but as it has street lighting assume 30 in the absence of any posted limit https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

EDIT: I had to go down there the other day actually due to there being roadworks at the roundabout blocking off the A3049 and I don't recall any confusing aspects as to the limits and I'm not that familiar with the area though I am there from time to time.

 

[SheffMan]

I was coming off one dual carriageway onto another.
As far as I can tell this roundabout (the "Mountbatten roundabout" in Bournemouth) is where the speed limit changes : A3049 onto it (DC) is 40mph, the A3049 off it (SC) is 40mph, but the A348 (DC) is only 30mph (but it doesn't actually tell you that ! ).

 

[Rroff]

Unless it has changed since I was down there that whole section of the A348 is a 40 limit - something mixed up there.

EDIT: Looks like it has changed or I'm forgetting:

I can't really be of any more help without seeing what the current signage is.

 

[marinersfan]

My old man lives in Sheffield. He got done doing over the limit somewhere around the town and successfully proved that at the point he'd joined a road that there was no speed limit sign.

 

[Kenai]

I might be wrong but I always thought the presence of the street lighting alone was enough to determine a 30mph limit unless signed otherwise

 

[whitecrook]

I might be wrong but I always thought the presence of the street lighting alone was enough to determine a 30mph limit unless signed otherwise

It indicates that it’s likely to be but doesn’t mean that it is.

 

[Rroff]

I might be wrong but I always thought the presence of the street lighting alone was enough to determine a 30mph limit unless signed otherwise

Most of that section is 40 with very poor use of repeaters, etc. when we were last down there had to rely on the speed limit the car was showing quite a bit not being overly familiar with that area - I go down there sometimes for training courses for work at a site just off Wallisdown road.

 

[Kenai]

It indicates that it’s likely to be but doesn’t mean that it is.

But what else would it be if it's got street lighting but no signage to indicate a limit other than 30?

National speed limits​

The following speed limits apply to all single and dual carriageways with street lights, unless there are signs showing otherwise:

• 30 miles per hour (48km/h) in England, Scotland or Northern Ireland
• 20 miles per hour (32km/h) in Wales

(Obviously Wales is different with their 20mph perversions)

 

[whitecrook]

But what else would it be if it's got street lighting but no signage to indicate a limit other than 30?

Could be anything?? That’s the point

 

[Kenai]

Could be anything?? That’s the point

Can it though?

I can't recall ever seeing anything that says an unsigned but lit road can be anything other than 30 (or 20 for Wales... as above)

 

[Hotwired]

I cant see a sign on streetview BUT the date of scanning the area is 2 years ago.

You would have to go back there and be sure of it in person before trying to claim there's no signage.

 

[whitecrook]

But what else would it be if it's got street lighting but no signage to indicate a limit other than 30?


(Obviously Wales is different with their 20mph perversions)

Assumes theres a national speed limit sign.

 

[whitecrook]

Assumes theres a national speed limit sign.

Maybe not. Maybe it’s 30. Get your measure out and check if the signs are 200yds apart.

 

[Hotwired]

I can see some signage.

Probably help if you drew your route but

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Street View · Google Maps

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www.google.com

Bear in mind again this is 2 years out of date

 

[SheffMan]

I cant see a sign on streetview BUT the date of scanning the area is 2 years ago.

You would have to go back there and be sure of it in person before trying to claim there's no signage.

That speed camera was put in in 2023 and is on the streetview with no 30mph change of speed limit sign.....
Incidentally I woudl be interested to know why that camera was put in.
I have looked at Crash Map for that site and there were only 6 "Slight" accidents (non serious and no fatalities) in the 6 years before that camera went in (i.e. from 2018 to 2023) at that site :

2018 = none
2019 = 1
2020 = 1
2021 = 4
2022= none
2023 = none

That is not many considering how busy that road is.

To be fair Crashmap's defintion of "slight" accident is purely on the seriousness of any injuries. There was a pretty bad accident near our house with some prat in an Audi (of course it was...) who wrote his car off with both air bags deployed and that was still classified as "slight".

 

[Kenai]

Assumes theres a national speed limit sign.

No it doesn't, it applies to all roads that don't show any sign.

If you dig into the legislation itself, the bits relevant here...

81 General speed limit for restricted roads.​

(1)It shall not be lawful for a person to drive a motor vehicle on a restricted road at a speed exceeding 30 miles per hour.

82 What roads are restricted roads.​

(1)Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 84(3) of this Act, a road is a restricted road for the purposes of section 81 of this Act if—

(a)in England and Wales, there is provided on it a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart;

( b )in Scotland, there is provided on it a system of carriageway lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 185 metres apart and the road is of a classification or type specified for the purposes of this subsection in regulations made by the Scottish Ministers.

85 Traffic signs for indicating speed restrictions.

(5)In any proceedings for a contravention of section 81 of this Act, where the proceedings relate to driving on a road provided with such a system of street or carriageway lighting, evidence of the absence of traffic signs displayed in pursuance of this section to indicate that the road is not a restricted road for the purposes of that section shall be evidence that the road is a restricted road for those purposes.

...which seems to be a very convoluted way to say "if there's evidence of no signs at all, then that's considered evidence it was a 30mph restricted road" (subject to the lighting being there obviously)

 

[Scuzi]

That speed camera was put in in 2023 and is on the streetview with no 30mph change of speed limit sign.....
Incidentally I woudl be interested to know why that camera was put in.
I have looked at Crash Map for that site and there were only 6 "Slight" accidents (non serious and no fatalities) in the 6 years before that camera went in (i.e. from 2018 to 2023) at that site :

2018 = none
2019 = 1
2020 = 1
2021 = 4
2022= none
2023 = none

That is not many considering how busy that road is.

To be fair Crashmap's defintion of "slight" accident is purely on the seriousness of any injuries. There was a pretty bad accident near our house with some prat in an Audi (of course it was...) who wrote his car off with both air bags deployed and that was still classified as "slight".

It’s Dorset. It is riddled with cameras.

 

[SheffMan]

I can see some signage.

Probably help if you drew your route but

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Bear in mind again this is 2 years out of date

Here.
Mountbatten Roundabout (next to the Miller & Carter) is where the speed limit appears to change. It just doesn't tell you.....
Whatever the legal small print I think it stinks.

 

[Rroff]

That speed camera was put in in 2023

Whelp, it feels like just the other day I was down there but it would have been before those changes possibly when the roadworks where when they were doing those changes.