Challenging a speed camera ticket due to no "change of speed" sign

[SheffMan]

Whatever, the whole situation is patently unfair in that locals would be far less likely to get a speeding ticket than non locals who do not know all the up down speed limits.
To that end I am wanting to start a Parliamentary petition asking that all speed cameras must have the speed limit prominently just in front of the camera. Ideally (and also cheaply) the speed limit should be painted on the road just in front of the camera's gradation lines. That way it'd appear on the picture and there could be no argument (either way) that the speed limit was unclear and therefore the ticket was "fair". After all, they say speed cameras are not there to prosecute drivers but to slow them down and I can think of no better way to achieve those two objectives than this idea.
Have the esteemed members of this forum got any ideas as to the best wording for said petition ?

 

[Kenai]

A parliamentary petition? Jesus christ, let it go.

You've either driven past a 30 sign without seeing it on Canford Way and/or you didn't know that a street lit road without any other signage is a 30mph limit (which is in the highway code and has been legislation for decades, it's not a new thing) - either way, it's on you. Take responsibility for your mistake and stop looking for a reason it's someone else's fault.

Edit - for 36mph in a 30mph zone, they're probably offering a SAC anyway aren't they? If they are, go on it, it seems like it would be useful to you.

Edit 2 - from Dorset Police:

Driver awareness courses​

Once you’ve responded to the notice, and done so within the required timeframe, you could be sent:

• an option to attend a driver awareness course
• a fixed penalty notice
• or a letter telling you to go to court

The police will consider the following grounds when assessing your eligibility for the driver awareness course:

• your speed narrowly exceeded the limit and falls within the guidelines set out by the National Police Chief Council (NPCC) up to:
  • 31 mph in a 20 mph area
  • 42 mph in a 30 mph area
  • 53 mph in a 40 mph area
  • 64 mph in a 50 mph area
  • 75 mph in a 60 mph area
  • 86 mph in a 70 mph area
• you haven’t already completed a course within three years or are booked on an upcoming course

Please note: There's no legal entitlement to a course, these are offered at the sole discretion of police, and the courts have no powers over courses. If an offer for a course is made to you, the police can withdraw the offer at any time before the course has been successfully completed.

Good chance you'll only have to do a course anyway.

 

[SheffMan]

A parliamentary petition? Jesus christ, let it go.

You've either driven past a 30 sign without seeing it on Canford Way and/or you didn't know that a street lit road without any other signage is a 30mph limit (which is in the highway code and has been legislation for decades, it's not a new thing) - either way, it's on you. Take responsibility for your mistake and stop looking for a reason it's someone else's fault.

Edit - for 36mph in a 30mph zone, they're probably offering a SAC anyway aren't they? If they are, go on it, it seems like it would be useful to you.

Edit 2 - from Dorset Police:

Good chance you'll only have to do a course anyway.

A few points.

1 - I am not the only one who feels the speed limit at that camera is unclear.

2 - I am aware of the street light rule as I did a speed awareness course 6 years ago, the street light rule is useful but not infallible in the real world with cars flying past you and/or a queue behind you.......
It was not coincidental that 2019 speeding ticket (35mph in a 30....) was also when I was on holiday in an unfamiliar location. I have spoke to many friends and colleagues and it's the same story for almost all of the speeding tickets they have had, and none of them are drivers going around speeding and only getting caught because they don't know where the cameras are. They got caught because the speed limit was unclear and unexpected. Exactly like mine.

3 - The bottom line : Bearing the above in mind you appear not to think the speed limit at speed cameras should be made be clear enough that local knowledge makes you less likely to get prosecuted ?

 

[Sin_Chase]

Whilst the clearness of the speed limit and fairness of the ticket is in question this all boils down to one thing....were you speeding and has the ticket been properly issued? I think the answer to those questions are unfortunately yes.

This leads on to the second question....do you want to fight the ticket in these circumstances given you don't have a legal provision to rely on in your defence? Fighting this will undoubtedly mean going to court and appealing to the magistrate on fairness grounds rather than legal ones. Not a great position to be in!

 

[Kenai]

A few points.

1 - I am not the only one who feels the speed limit at that camera is unclear.

2 - I am aware of the street light rule as I did a speed awareness course 6 years ago, it is useful but not infallible in the real world with cars flying past you and/or a queue behind you.......
It was not coincidental that speeding ticket (35mph in a 30....) was also when I was on holiday in an unfamiliar location. I have spoke to many friends and colleagues and it's the same story for almost all of the speeding tickets they have had, and none of them are drivers going around speeding and only getting caught because they don't know where the cameras are. They got caught because the speed limit was unclear and unexpected. Exactly like mine.

3 - Bearing the above in mind you appear not to think the speed limit at speed cameras should be made be clear enough that local knowledge makes you less likely to get prosecuted ?

1 - All that tells us is that more people probably need better educating on how speed limits work, it's no secret that plenty of people are bad drivers.

2 - So you were aware of how to determine the limit there but failed to do so, hence my comment above, just take responsibility for your mistake - everyone makes mistakes from time to time.

The speed limit was clear enough to not get caught IMO - there were (and I suspect still are) 30 signs at Canford Way as well the lighting to denote it's not going to be anything other than a 30. You have to drive near enough a kilometre from Canford Way before reaching that camera with no signs that I can see to suggest the limit along those roads are anything other than 30, so assuming it must be 40 because of all those 40 signs that don't exist is just bizarre. Locals might have an excuse, who knew it used to be 40 a few years ago, but for someone not local, I just don't see why you'd think it's 40.

3 - I don't think it's necessary to go absolutely lowest common denominator and put up extra signs, no, if people can't understand that's a 30mph road, that's on them really. Maybe getting caught will help them learn and understand their speed better universally, rather than just at one particular spot because they saw a big number by a camera.

 

[SheffMan]

Here's an interesting point. I have always found the best way to check if it's 40 (not 30) is to check side streets for evidence of (the back of) 40 signs.
But now we have many 20mph limits on side streets that's no longer "a banker" is it........

Basically the whole situation with trying to work out the speed limit* is getting so complicated that one can only guarantee not getting a speeding ticket is if you have local knowledge or you use 80% of your concentration trying to work out said limits which is patently less safe.
Thus we need clarity about what the speed limit is, particularly when there is a speed cameras there handing out tickets that could mean people's jobs are on the line.

* of which there are far more speed restrictions than ever before but also more different limits.
It used to be 30 or 40 or 60 or 70. Now it's 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 or 70 !

 

[SheffMan]

Whilst the clearness of the speed limit and fairness of the ticket is in question this all boils down to one thing....were you speeding and has the ticket been properly issued? I think the answer to those questions are unfortunately yes.

This leads on to the second question....do you want to fight the ticket in these circumstances given you don't have a legal provision to rely on in your defence? Fighting this will undoubtedly mean going to court and appealing to the magistrate on fairness grounds rather than legal ones. Not a great position to be in!

Fortunately or unfortunately I have no choice but to accept the ticket as I live in Sheffield, 5 hours e/w from Bournemouth where the case would be heard.
At least that simplifies the issue for me !
But the basic principle, that non locals should not be more likely to get prosecuted than locals, remains. I would like to try and do something about that, however unlikely it may be to happen......

 

[Kenai]

If it's taking 80% of your concentration to figure out what the speed limit is in a scenario like this, it might be better for everyone if you retired from driving, it sounds like it's a bit too difficult for you.

 

[SheffMan]

If it's taking 80% of your concentration to figure out what the speed limit is in a scenario like this, it might be better for everyone if you retired from driving, it sounds like it's a bit too difficult for you.

Driving is exceptionally difficult and the responsibility of the driver (in charge of a lethal weapon effectively) is massive.
I would never say I was the perfect driver by any means but, excepting car park nudges, I have not had an accident since 1991.

 

[Kenai]

Responsibility is indeed massive but I don't think I can agree that driving is 'exceptionally difficult'. If you find that it is, you might benefit from some refresher lessons or an advanced driving course or similar to help out, something to consider at least.

 

[adam cool dude]

I have just been to the London Gateway Port today. First time ever. Average speed cameras everywhere 30-40mph and even 20mph. This is purely an industrial area.

I thought I had taken a wrong turn and ended up in some military installation.

First time speed cameras have been put on private roads according to Google. Totally unnecessary for the area as there is no pedestrian traffic and it is mostly slow moving lorries.

Traffic light camera nearly caught me out as lights went to amber on a 40mph stretch so had to brake quite hard.

Just a pure cash grab. South is just a joke now.

 

[SheffMan]

Just a pure cash grab.

My cynicism is rising rapidly about many speed cameras (not all of them to be fair), it really is.
I am pretty certain that, in the old days when a copper would have knabbed you for doing that 36mph in a 30 he would have had a word and, particularly once it became clear I was not from the area, he'd have "let me off" with a warning.
But they would not have had coppers trying to knab people for doing 36mph in a 30 limit on a dual carriageway which had only had 6 "slight" accidents in 6 years anyway !

 

[SheffMan]

If it's taking 80% of your concentration to figure out what the speed limit is in a scenario like this, it might be better for everyone if you retired from driving, it sounds like it's a bit too difficult for you.

No accidents in 34 years would disprove that statment I think.

Incidentally I was just chatting to a mate of mine who does loads of driving for work about 50k a year.
He agrees with what I said above :

Here's an interesting point. I have always found the best way to check if it's 40 (not 30) is to check side streets for evidence of (the back of) 40 signs.
But now we have many 20mph limits on side streets that's no longer "a banker" is it........

Basically the whole situation with trying to work out the speed limit* is getting so complicated that one can only guarantee not getting a speeding ticket if one has local knowledge or you use 80% of your concentration trying to work out said limits which is patently less safe.
Thus we need clarity about what the speed limit is, particularly when there is a speed cameras there handing out tickets that could mean people's jobs are on the line.

* of which there are far more speed restrictions than ever before but also more different limits.
It used to be 30 or 40 or 60 or 70. Now it's 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 or 70 !

He also thinks more clarity of speed limits at speed camera sites is a very good idea and was perplexed anyone should not want that.

 

[Disco_P]

Pay the fine or do the course and take it as a learning experience. You've learned that street lighting = 30 unless noted otherwise.

 

[Kenai]

No accidents in 34 years would disprove that statment I think.

Incidentally I was just chatting to a mate of mine who does loads of driving for work about 50k a year.
He agrees with what I said above :

Here's an interesting point. I have always found the best way to check if it's 40 (not 30) is to check side streets for evidence of (the back of) 40 signs.
But now we have many 20mph limits on side streets that's no longer "a banker" is it........

Basically the whole situation with trying to work out the speed limit* is getting so complicated that one can only guarantee not getting a speeding ticket if one has local knowledge or you use 80% of your concentration trying to work out said limits which is patently less safe.
Thus we need clarity about what the speed limit is, particularly when there is a speed cameras there handing out tickets that could mean people's jobs are on the line.

* of which there are far more speed restrictions than ever before but also more different limits.
It used to be 30 or 40 or 60 or 70. Now it's 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 or 70 !

He also thinks more clarity of speed limits at speed camera sites is a very good idea and was perplexed anyone should not want that.

If he's doing 50k a year and also finds understanding speed limits difficult to the point it's taking 80% of his concentration, it sounds like he could probably do with some refresher lessons too, it's not that difficult.

If people can't keep track of what speed limit they're in to the point they feel like they need extra signs right next to the cameras to not get caught, the issue isn't really the cameras or the signs, it's their own lack of competence.

 

[sigma]

Taxi drivers do 50k+ a year, I wouldn't trust their opinion on tying my shoe laces, let alone speed limits.

 

[SheffMan]

If he's doing 50k a year and also finds understanding speed limits difficult to the point it's taking 80% of his concentration, it sounds like he could probably do with some refresher lessons too, it's not that difficult.

If people can't keep track of what speed limit they're in to the point they feel like they need extra signs right next to the cameras to not get caught, the issue isn't really the cameras or the signs, it's their own lack of competence.

I didn't say he thinks it takes 80% of ones concentration, the bit I highlighted, whish he very much agreed with, said :

Basically the whole situation with trying to work out the speed limit is getting so complicated that one can only guarantee not getting a speeding ticket if one has local knowledge

TBH I do not know why we are arguing the point, it is obvious.

 

[Kenai]

I didn't say he thinks it takes 80% of ones concentration, the bit I highlighted, whish he very much agreed with, said :

Basically the whole situation with trying to work out the speed limit is getting so complicated that one can only guarantee not getting a speeding ticket if one has local knowledge

TBH I do not know why we are arguing the point, it is obvious.

Well that bit in isolation is clearly not true, it's perfectly possible to understand speed limits without needing local knowledge, for anyone that is a competent driver (edit - I expect many incompetent drivers also do not actually find this aspect in particular very difficult either).

In your specific scenario, it's only prior local knowledge of the old speed limit from several years previous that could arguably lead you to think that road is a 40mph in the first place.

I must admit, i'm impressed at the amount of determination to try and avoid taking any personal responsibility whatsoever for your own mistake here.

 

[sigma]

Surely speed limits are signposted, and if they're not then you apply the logic stated in the highway code.

Essentially, if you're unsure and you're not in a built up residential area then it's going to be 30.

 

[SheffMan]

Surely speed limits are signposted, and if they're not then you apply the logic stated in the highway code.

Essentially, if you're unsure and you're not in a built up residential area then it's going to be 30.

To a point I would agree, but in the real world when you have a queue of cars up your backside it's not quite as easy as that is it ? Ironically on most "motoring" forums there are people very disparaging of people driving too slowly as they see it ! I don't think they'd be too happy about everyone doing 30mph whenever there's streetlights unless they are 100% sure it's 40.....
But in actual fact, with the new 20mph limit, that advice (streetlights = 30mph unless sign posted higher than that) is now wrong anyway. And that new 20mph limit also means one can no longer confirm the main road you are on is a 40mph by looking down a side street and seeing the rear of the 30mph signs.

My essential point is that speed limits are becoming more and more complicated (which is particularly worrying when speed cameras are becoming more and more common), surely we can all agree on that one ? ! ?