Smart Meter - worth changing to?

[ThriceNightly]

• SMART meters only show you what you use and the cost. They were never a money saving device, its down to you to change your usage if you feel you are using too much/ spending too much

It really annoys me listening to the current range of radio commercials enticing the public to sign to a smart meter by claiming the amount of energy /money customers are going to save by having one. When in fact the cost of installing them is ultimately going to be passed onto the customers via higher bills.

I still have my eon energy monitor (sensor clipped onto rising main) but despite the initial novelty value I unplugged it it as its really down to common sense once you understand how many watts a device uses. also you have to plug the energy monitor in...which uses electricity!

Side note re smaller suppliers as well.

The big six have to buy energy 12 months in advance due to ******** regulation which means they need to forecast future prices and usage without getting it horrendously wrong which often means higher prices to the consumer whereas smaller companies, under a certain customer base, can buy on "day prices" so they can react to cheap prices and buy on the spot. This can mean cheaper prices when times are good with smaller suppliers but when wholesale prices rocket the smaller companies bleed hard as they cant absorb the price increase as much as the larger companies this has been seen with some of the smaller companies folding.

Thanks that''s interesting information. Using Outfox as an example of a smaller supplier fairly new to the market, they currently purchase wholesale from wind farm energy producer Orsted. Would you say wind energy is less susceptible to market changes as gas/ coal?

 

[BigBoy]

Most Smart meters are SMETS1 but there are some SMETS2 out there but its a supply issue more than anything.

• Yes the vast majority of SMART meters lose SMART functionality when switching suppliers but they should regain that functionality by the end of the year / start of 2019. This to be honest can be put down to lack of foresight and the government pushing for quotas when the infrastructure isn't in place. The problem is there are a lot of meter makes and installing meter operators and generally you will see 1 or 2 meter operators are contracted with a supplier but not with other suppliers and to obtain the licenses and means for each supplier and respective parties to read each others meters is astronomical. HOWEVER... a company/service is being set up, the DCC (Data communications Company) who will hold the means and licenses for all SMART meter and will be the sole company who will collect readings from these meters and then feed them to whichever supplier you are with. Essentially they will become SMART meters once more
• SMART meters only show you what you use and the cost. They were never a money saving device, its down to you to change your usage if you feel you are using too much/ spending too much
• They can be hacked as can anything like this that's capable of sending or receiving a signal. "Hacking to lower you energy prices" is a stupid comment as the prices, while also stored on the meter, if you change them on the meter it means diddly squat to the energy supplier as the prices are on the suppliers billing systems. The only possible worthwhile hack would be to set it to under report and to be the best of my knowledge that requires an extreme amount of effort and know how which 99.99% of the populous doesn't have

I work for EDF as a Metering Engineer, and I can say for sure that all SMETS1 meters will NOT be added or upgraded to the SMETS2 system when it eventually goes live. This is because the Government who own the DCC have decided that "all meters not ORIGINALLY SMETS2 are there for not capable of being controlled by the DCC" (exact wording from the government whitepaper we all got sent at work). 99% of this thinking is because the DCC wont be able top claim the rental/tax from the coms hub.

The main difference between SMETS1 and 2 is the communications hub on the top of the meter will be owned and operated by the DCC (when they eventually get around to producing something looking like a working company) the Energy Provider (EDF in my case) then owns the meter and pays a rental/tax for the communications hub. So it does not mater what make/brand the meter is its the coms hub that makes it smart.

After installing several hundred meters in recent months you would be surprised to see how many people could not give too hoots how much electric they use. But after being shown how to use the smart system they soon become very interested in how much it costs to run things (like having a tumble dryer going flat out all summer when a perfectly usable washing line is available). Honestly the public have no common sense!

Hacking is the governments biggest worry and partly why the DCC is taking so long to set up. The DCC will hold data on every house hold in every part of the UK even if you do not have a smart meter, all your reading will be sent there so when you do want to switch supplier it will be "easier" because the already have all the information needed. Also once the DCC is in operation ANY supplier change will involve you HAVING to have a smart meter even if you dont want one. All this is currently being brushed under the carpet by government as quietly as possible.

I would link the whitepaper but I quite like my job and as its currently covered by a NDA I've probably said too much already....

Any questions then please fire away!

 

[rn123]

I work for EDF as a Metering Engineer, and I can say for sure that all SMETS1 meters will NOT be added or upgraded to the SMETS2 system when it eventually goes live. This is because the Government who own the DCC have decided that "all meters not ORIGINALLY SMETS2 are there for not capable of being controlled by the DCC" (exact wording from the government whitepaper we all got sent at work). 99% of this thinking is because the DCC wont be able top claim the rental/tax from the coms hub.

The main difference between SMETS1 and 2 is the communications hub on the top of the meter will be owned and operated by the DCC (when they eventually get around to producing something looking like a working company) the Energy Provider (EDF in my case) then owns the meter and pays a rental/tax for the communications hub. So it does not mater what make/brand the meter is its the coms hub that makes it smart.

After installing several hundred meters in recent months you would be surprised to see how many people could not give too hoots how much electric they use. But after being shown how to use the smart system they soon become very interested in how much it costs to run things (like having a tumble dryer going flat out all summer when a perfectly usable washing line is available). Honestly the public have no common sense!

Hacking is the governments biggest worry and partly why the DCC is taking so long to set up. The DCC will hold data on every house hold in every part of the UK even if you do not have a smart meter, all your reading will be sent there so when you do want to switch supplier it will be "easier" because the already have all the information needed. Also once the DCC is in operation ANY supplier change will involve you HAVING to have a smart meter even if you dont want one. All this is currently being brushed under the carpet by government as quietly as possible.

I would link the whitepaper but I quite like my job and as its currently covered by a NDA I've probably said too much already....

Any questions then please fire away!

So is it best to wait then in the hope of getting the second gen?

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Do they work with solar panels? I've heard mixed thing, we were with scottish power and they'd booked us in to get one fitted but they didn't turn up the first time then turned up on the wrong day the 2nd time so we just ignored their letters after that especially as they couldn't even confirm if they could fit one when they turned up 'cos of the panels . We've since changed energy suppliers so it would have been useless anyhow by the sounds of it.

if you have solar the last thing you want is a smart meter.

when you aren't using all the solar. your old meter goes backwards. essentially meaning you are getting paid the market rate for it rather than the 3p they usually give you for it.

 

[andicole0]

if you have solar the last thing you want is a smart meter.

when you aren't using all the solar. your old meter goes backwards. essentially meaning you are getting paid the market rate for it rather than the 3p they usually give you for it.

Your solar panel installation should have included a meter check and change as necessary. If you have one going backwards you could be in for a retrospective charge.
Most suppliers now have solar compatible smart meters.
I can see no reason to avoid a smart meter as you will be forced to have one sooner or later. You still need to be aware of your usage and any anomolies so there is no need to be scared of them.
Andi.

 

[Pottsey]

Your solar panel installation should have included a meter check and change as necessary. If you have one going backwards you could be in for a retrospective charge.
Most suppliers now have solar compatible smart meters.
I can see no reason to avoid a smart meter as you will be forced to have one sooner or later. You still need to be aware of your usage and any anomolies so there is no need to be scared of them.
Andi.

The reason to avoid them is they offer zero benefits at least to some of us and have drawbacks. For example yet another device on wireless is more interference and crowded wireless which is bad. All I see from smart meters is wasted time and hassle for zero benefits and being more complicated devices they are more likely to go wrong.

 

[sovietspybob]

if you have solar the last thing you want is a smart meter.

when you aren't using all the solar. your old meter goes backwards. essentially meaning you are getting paid the market rate for it rather than the 3p they usually give you for it.

As we only built our house in 2015 we've got a digital meter so no ability to 'store on the grid' like you could with old ones.

 

[MichaelAwkward]

The reason to avoid them is they offer zero benefits at least to some of us and have drawbacks. For example yet another device on wireless is more interference and crowded wireless which is bad. All I see from smart meters is wasted time and hassle for zero benefits and being more complicated devices they are more likely to go wrong.

As opposed to how many new mobile phones are bought every day? I can't wait to not have to take my readings every month. Sometimes I forget, sometimes I can't be bothered, one less thing to worry about.

SMETS1 vs SMETS2 is a separate issue, but in principle smart meters that are centrally accessible and require no user input are a step in the right direction. I'll be over the moon when estimated readings are a thing of the past.

 

[flea.rider]

got a pay as you go .. £80 a month well £20 a week yr in yr out which is fine ...don't need a smart meter to tell me that

 

[ahar]

My smart gas meter broke and was replaced last week with a dumb one as that was all the engineer had in their van !

I worked on the DCC procurement run by DECC - it looked like a bad idea then and it still does to me now!

 

[Pottsey]

As opposed to how many new mobile phones are bought every day? I can't wait to not have to take my readings every month. Sometimes I forget, sometimes I can't be bothered, one less thing to worry about.

SMETS1 vs SMETS2 is a separate issue, but in principle smart meters that are centrally accessible and require no user input are a step in the right direction. I'll be over the moon when estimated readings are a thing of the past.

Other people’s new mobile phones don’t have any impact on the internal signal of your home, while the smart meters can interfere. As for not taking meter readings last time I looked I still have to take monthly meter readings even if I get a smart meter due to solar panels so just what is the point or benefit?

 

[andicole0]

Other people’s new mobile phones don’t have any impact on the internal signal of your home, while the smart meters can interfere. As for not taking meter readings last time I looked I still have to take monthly meter readings even if I get a smart meter due to solar panels so just what is the point or benefit?

I have solar and only take FiT readings every 3 months. No need to take gas and leccy readings.
Andi.

 

[Pottsey]

I have solar and only take FiT readings every 3 months. No need to take gas and leccy readings.
Andi.

But its not really saving any time. It takes all of a few seconds to write down the leccy readings at the same time I do FiT at least in my case they are right next to each other. I just do not see the benefit of a smart meter when I still have to take a reading and submit it. Its hardly saving any time or offering any other benefit.

 

[andicole0]

But its not really saving any time. It takes all of a few seconds to write down the leccy readings at the same time I do FiT at least in my case they are right next to each other. I just do not see the benefit of a smart meter when I still have to take a reading and submit it. Its hardly saving any time or offering any other benefit.

Just think about what you've said, my FiT meter is inside my other meters are outside and not next to each other. The Smart meter saves me time, maybe not you but I don't really care about your time. There are benefits, however small you think they are. It also stops estimates and for many people this is a huge benefit. Just think of those who are less capable than you.
Andi.

 

[Pottsey]

Just think about what you've said, my FiT meter is inside my other meters are outside and not next to each other. The Smart meter saves me time, maybe not you but I don't really care about your time. There are benefits, however small you think they are. It also stops estimates and for many people this is a huge benefit. Just think of those who are less capable than you.
Andi.

Yes there are benefits for some people. You said you see no reason to not get a smart meter. All I was doing is pointing out that there are reasons to not get one like they can slow down your other home wireless devices. Not only are there disadvantages at times, for some people like myself they offer no real benefit. For other people they are even more inaccurate and worse then old meters. I have seen people get shock bills due to smart meters not reporting accurately or enough and so they ended up with worse estimates.

 

[BigBoy]

So is it best to wait then in the hope of getting the second gen?

Its up to you, until the DCC is operational SMETS2 is not offered

if you have solar the last thing you want is a smart meter.

when you aren't using all the solar. your old meter goes backwards. essentially meaning you are getting paid the market rate for it rather than the 3p they usually give you for it.

Smart meters and Solar have worked side by side for years in industry why would there be an issue now? The reverse energy you speak of makes no difference to the reading on your meter...

Your solar panel installation should have included a meter check and change as necessary. If you have one going backwards you could be in for a retrospective charge.
Most suppliers now have solar compatible smart meters.
I can see no reason to avoid a smart meter as you will be forced to have one sooner or later. You still need to be aware of your usage and any anomolies so there is no need to be scared of them.
Andi.

This

The reason to avoid them is they offer zero benefits at least to some of us and have drawbacks. For example yet another device on wireless is more interference and crowded wireless which is bad. All I see from smart meters is wasted time and hassle for zero benefits and being more complicated devices they are more likely to go wrong.

Wrong, the Zigbee network they use is similar to bluetooth, they dont go near your wifi or any other network in your house, and as for interference dont be silly...

As we only built our house in 2015 we've got a digital meter so no ability to 'store on the grid' like you could with old ones.

never been such a thing

Other people’s new mobile phones don’t have any impact on the internal signal of your home, while the smart meters can interfere.

Nope! see above smart meters use a mobile phone sim card and no way impact on any existing systems for the south of the country (basically midlands down) its Telefonica i.e O2 (for SMETS2) running the network back end, for SMETS1 they use a roaming sim so can use any network or strongest signal, the also only use the 2g network so the one that no one uses anymore as 3G/4g and soon 5g will take over.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Its up to you, until the DCC is operational SMETS2 is not offered


Smart meters and Solar have worked side by side for years in industry why would there be an issue now? The reverse energy you speak of makes no difference to the reading on your meter...

This

Wrong, the Zigbee network they use is similar to bluetooth, they dont go near your wifi or any other network in your house, and as for interference dont be silly...

never been such a thing

Nope! see above smart meters use a mobile phone sim card and no way impact on any existing systems for the south of the country (basically midlands down) its Telefonica i.e O2 (for SMETS2) running the network back end, for SMETS1 they use a roaming sim so can use any network or strongest signal, the also only use the 2g network so the one that no one uses anymore as 3G/4g and soon 5g will take over.

How does the meter going backwards make no difference to the reading on the meter?

It effectively means that I can use energy that I have produced whenever I want rather than when it is being produced.

With a smart meter I need to use it there and then or it goes to the grid where I get paid 3p for it then have to buy it back for 13p.


So I would be screwing myself by getting a smart meter.

 

[rainbowGuy]

Signed up recently myself not much info on them but they do have 50k customers since last year

No standing charge however they charge a monthly membership based on useage...customer otherwise pays the wholesale rate

as soon as i posted i saw that but to me it looked like a flat membership, didnt see anything saying its based on usage.. and 8£ is a lot and is more expensive than the current 10-12p standing charge I pay each day.. so I am confused they said they can still save me money when i inputted my usage data :s

 

[Psycho Sonny]

as soon as i posted i saw that but to me it looked like a flat membership, didnt see anything saying its based on usage.. and 8£ is a lot and is more expensive than the current 10-12p standing charge I pay each day.. so I am confused they said they can still save me money when i inputted my usage data :s

it will obviously suit bigger homes and bigger households, those with electric showers and electric heating, etc.

 

[jpaul]

Wrong, the Zigbee network they use is similar to bluetooth, they dont go near your wifi or any other network in your house, and as for interference dont be silly...

they use the same frequencies as bluetooth/wifi https://www.link-labs.com/blog/bluetooth-zigbee-comparison and have 10x more powerful transmitter 300m range !
and apparently ping every 8 seconds ... so, if I was using blue-tooth headphones a lot say, I might be concerned

I have very poor 2g network reception (does not work in the house !), I don't know if that precludes a smart meter ?
but, I suspect meter wil communicate via zigbee mesh with other meters that have a better 2g ?


edit - saw some answers

https://www.silabs.com/documents/public/white-papers/zigbee-propagation-for-smart-metering.pdf
Widespread use of ZigBee Smart Energy in the US smart metering program is of little comfort because US regulations allow devices to transmit at much higher power levels (100 mW/+20 dBm) than in the UK and Europe (10 mW/+10 dBm).
http://www.smartme.co.uk/technical.html
Smart meters communicate through mobile communications and so the signal strength is an important factor to consider for installation.
For SMETS1 meters the installer will usually test on site and make a decision there and then whether to install. If there is not a sufficient signal they will usually walk away.
For SMETS2 there are more options. The communications are provided by the Data Communications Company (DCC) and suppliers can check that a premises has communications before visiting a site. Once on site they can check with a signal checking device if the signal is strong enough in the meter location. If it isn’t they can fit a number of different aerials to try to boost the signal. If that doesn’t work an external aerial or an alternative mesh communications method is available in some areas. Even then they can leave the meter de-commissioned and ask the DCC to get the communications working.