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wingman said:
For clarity, Fox, are you saying that six months ago when you couldn't order a diesel ST, that the ST marker wasn't a trim?
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I'm agreeing with Samsung, the ST owner, that ST is a trim level, its you lot jumping through hoops to find reasons why it's not :p

Is GTI not a trim level?

We've got to be looking at sure fire candidate for most tedious discussion of the month here though, lets be honest :D The eventual outcome doesn't really change anything or even matter :D
 
It can't be as bad as that manual box debate we had on dual clutch transmissions, right?!

I guess it's because I never once thought of the ST (or GTI, or whatever!) as a trim level until you said it, therefore extra clarity would be welcomed!

Is the 'R8' a trim, because you can get that with various engine configurations... :p

No, I don't feel that the GTi is a trim level. It's bespoke to the "top" range models.

Anyway, to keep things on track, my contribution today;

G1T5Mveh.jpg.png


I know the emblem is wonky :(
 
[TW]Fox;29160454 said:
We've got to be looking at sure fire candidate for most tedious discussion of the month here though, lets be honest :D The eventual outcome doesn't really change anything or even matter :D
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No, but i think you are wrong :p.

So yah boo sucks to you.
 
Jono8 said:
No, but i think you are wrong :p.

So yah boo sucks to you.
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Mate we had a massive discussion about this over on the st owners forum. A lot of the petrol ST owners don't agree that ford badge the diesel version as a ST because to us it's not really an ST.

We felt it should be badged accordingly but it's just a trim level now like you mention st1, 2 or 3.

The RS is more a car in its own right currently as it's only avaliable in a main spec with a few bits tweaked here and there depending which Rs you get.

I've not looked and maybe wrong but I'm guessing you can't get all the engines avaliable in say a base model focus as you can I the titanium x. And can u not get the diesel ST engine in the titanium x?

As fox said it does not matter anyway.
 
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Focus ST is a trim level, same way a Golf GTI or GTD is...

Is the 'R8' a trim, because you can get that with various engine configurations... :p
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R8 is not a trim level. R8 is the car, V10, V10 Plus, GT is the trim level I guess?
 
In my eyes, it's fundamentally a "trim level" when the car is mostly the same underneath. You could even argue that it's the case with the M3 / RS4 / C63 AMG etc :p And before you say anything, doesn't the MG ZT V8 have an entirely different drivetrain/layout to the other ZTs.. Is that a different car? :p

Although the term "trim level" does tend to conjure up thoughts of 'a few little extras', rather than a specially-developed high performance version, so I'm not sure it's 100% the correct term, but still. I'd err on the side of Fox with this, even though Ford probably consider it a different model (and it's listed separately on their website).
 
I get where people are coming from in both camps but i think the ambiguity is coming from Ford ST cars usually having a tuned higher BHP engine, interior and exteriors. There is no question it's a fast ford but with a BMW it can be a low displacement engine with a M-Sport styling pack and look like something far more special. I think this is where the confusion lies in here. I guess these can be regarded as optional extras.

But yes, it is a trim level at the end of the day. If you want a particular Fiesta you quote its trim level, ST being one of them.

I do think however that they should have labeled the diesel ST as something else.
 
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Google cites it as follows;

Trim levels (or grades, as they're sometimes called) are simply different versions of the same model with different features and equipment. For models that use several trim choices, automakers usually offer three or four versions. For example, the 2013 Toyota RAV4 comes in three versions: LE, XLE and Limited.
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Going by that definition then the ST can be considered a trim level.

But also, as mentioned, certainly the M3, RS and AMG's of the world (except for the obvious bespoke models, AMG GT, R8 etc.) are also fundamentally trims.
 
Logsi said:
There is no question it's a fast ford but with a BMW it can be a low displacement engine with a M-Sport styling pack and look like something far more special.
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This perfectly describes the Focus ST diesel though, a low displacement engine with an ST styling pack and suspension. Infact tech spec wise it's almost exactly like a 320d in that regard.
 
I disagree, simply because Ford have the ST versions as separate cars on their website on the drop down list ( like BMW have the M cars separately).

It obviously doesn't matter, but as wingman said above, if ST is just a trim level then so are the M3's, Audi RS, VW GTI/R cars etc.
 
The fundamental problem is that Ford are over-exploiting the 'ST' moniker. When it moves from being a standalone 'special' model to multiple variants, petrol and diesel, different sub trims, then it loses some of it's brand equity.

It's a shame when the some of the cars are actually pretty good!
 
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