Poll: *** 2010 General Election Result & Discussion ***

[waxapple]

It doesn't matter what different people view as fair, there is only one possible definition for fair tax and it is the definition I gave.
Saying "ability to pay" is fair is like saying "positive discrimination" is NOT still discrimination

Do you think a fixed percentage of income would be a fair tax?

 

[Luseac]

How is giving people huge sums of unearned income fair? Why is it fair that the children of the rich get a massive unmeritocratic leg up in life? As for ability to pay, it's a massive chunk of unearned income! Ability to pay doesn't come into it, because you're not taxing something anyone has earned.

So you wouldn't want your years of hard work to help your children? We're not talking about buying Ralf another Ferrari here; we're talking about families not being forced to sell homes which may have been in the family for years. We're talking about a dead father being able to give his son that House deposit, savings security or cash for retirement. Possibly even providing the sort of inheritance which means a grandson can go to University, or take that placement for a year in the U.S. The Inheritance tax is the most unfair of them all, and when people counter-act it by some warped socialist view based on what can only come about from jealously is ridiculous. What a repugnant society it is where the dead are taxed.

 

[RDM]

Of course that's fair. At the risk of repeating myself from last night, why should someone that earns more pay more? That makes no sense to me at all. Everyone should pay the same % tax.

Because they can afford to? If you took "fair" tax to the extreme you just devide the amount of tax required by the amount of people who pay tax. Would that be fair too? I am not arguing against the idea of "fair tax" but more of the usage of the word fair when it really is subjective when it comes to taxation.

"Fair" is also very subjective when it comes to voting reform too. You can argue that most voting systems are fair and at the same time they are unfair. Same goes for tax.

Why is that so hard to grasp?

 

[rypt]

Do you think a fixed percentage of income would be a fair tax?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm arguing for, and I believe Dolph has argued for that in many threads in SC as well.
You have a 10-15k untaxed income, and then say a flat 30% on everything above this (for income tax).

Local tax (council/community/whatever) should work as a fixed amount per person due to each person being an equal drain on the local resources

 

[scorza]

Disproportionate rates of income tax are the only possible means of fair taxation because people at the top of the tree are disproportionately rewarded for the work they do.

It should be remembered that even with our progressive income tax bands, a low earner will still pay a higher proportion of their income in taxation than a high earner. A flat tax system will just increase the inequality and fairness.

 

[The Mad Rapper]

Do you think a fixed percentage of income would be a fair tax?

That's what we have now? It's not fair because it's multi-tiered. If they introduce a flat rate then that would be OK as long as it isn't more than 25 - 30%.

 

[The Mad Rapper]

Disproportionate rates of income tax are the only possible means of fair taxation because people at the top of the tree are disproportionately rewarded for the work they do.

It should be remembered that even with our progressive income tax bands, a low earner will still pay a higher proportion of their income in taxation than a high earner. A flat tax system will just increase the inequality and fairness.

No, people are the top of the tree are properly rewarded for what they do. Those at the bottom of the tree can ascend the tree.

 

[The Mad Rapper]

Because they can afford to? If you took "fair" tax to the extreme you just devide the amount of tax required by the amount of people who pay tax. Would that be fair too? I am not arguing against the idea of "fair tax" but more of the usage of the word fair when it really is subjective when it comes to taxation.

"Fair" is also very subjective when it comes to voting reform too. You can argue that most voting systems are fair and at the same time they are unfair. Same goes for tax.

Why is that so hard to grasp?

Why SHOULD I pay more just because I can? Why can't YOU grasp that I may like to enjoy the rewards for my hard work? FFS - it's not rocket science.

 

[skippy2421]

Taxing things that have already been taxed happens all the time. Or do you not pay VAT, Stamp Duty, Alcohol duty, Fuel duty, Council tax and so on? That's a silly argument.

The fact is you are paying these when you are alive towards services that you are still using. When you are dead you are not. Plus this is not the main point. People work and pay their taxes and often save huge amounts to help their kids which is a responsible and generous thing to do as oppose to spunking it up the wall.

How are "family homes" fair?

ermmm i can't think of an argument that would rule the concept of a family home unfair, so may i ask what on earth are you on about?

How is giving people huge sums of unearned income fair? Why is it fair that the children of the rich get a massive unmeritocratic leg up in life? As for ability to pay, it's a massive chunk of unearned income! Ability to pay doesn't come into it, because you're not taxing something anyone has earned.

This is completely fair, an individual can do with their money as they please after they pay their taxes. It is not as if the state are giving them a leg up is it? As for it being unearned income you are joking right? It was earned by the deceased individual and left out of generosity.

You seem to be against all those that possess any wealth for some reason and as far as i can see it is based on absolutely nothing.

EDIT: goddammit RDM you're too quick. i'm just going to leave dealing with the commie to you

 

[rypt]

It should be remembered that even with our progressive income tax bands, a low earner will still pay a higher proportion of their income in taxation than a high earner. A flat tax system will just increase the inequality and fairness.

That is only due to the stealth taxes that impact the poor far more, if you reform VAT and fuel duty then it will no longer be so

 

[scorza]

Why SHOULD I pay more just because I can? Why can't YOU grasp that I may like to enjoy the rewards for my hard work? FFS - it's not rocket science.

Why are you getting so defensive about it? Is it because you know you are disproportionately rewarded for the work you do by any chance?

Why shouldn't low earners be able to enjoy more of the rewards for their hard work?

 

[The Mad Rapper]

You seem to be against all those that possess any wealth for some reason and as far as i can see it is based on absolutely nothing.

He does. Almost as though he's crying 'I haven't got it so he shouldn't have it either'. It just looks like jealousy to me.

 

[krooton]

That's what we have now? It's not fair because it's multi-tiered. If they introduce a flat rate then that would be OK as long as it isn't more than 25 - 30%.

Here's 2 tables, the first with the tax threshold at 15k, the second at 10k. 30% tax on earnings above that.

Salary	Tax paid	Take home	% earning paid tax
15000	0	15000	0.00%
20000	1500	18500	7.50%
25000	3000	22000	12.00%
30000	4500	25500	15.00%
35000	6000	29000	17.14%
50000	10500	39500	21.00%
75000	18000	57000	24.00%
			

Salary	Tax paid	Take home	% earning paid tax
15000	1500	13500	10.00%
20000	3000	17000	15.00%
25000	4500	20500	18.00%
30000	6000	24000	20.00%
35000	7500	27500	21.43%
50000	12000	38000	24.00%
75000	19500	55500	26.00%

 

[The Mad Rapper]

Why are you getting so defensive about it? Is it because you know you are disproportionately rewarded for the work you do by any chance?

Why shouldn't low earners be able to enjoy more of the rewards for their hard work?

I'm not getting defensive. I'm getting frustrated because this is a very simple matter and some of you seem unable (or unwilling) to grasp it. And actually, I don't think I get paid enough, but that's a separate matter I have in hand.

Personally, I don't give a **** about low earners or anyone else. My focus is rightly on my family, I can't look after everyone!

A flat tax is a fair way to tax. The low earner can always better themselves, if they choose not to then that's their fault, I don't see why I should be punished to help people who can't earn more than 20K a year FFS.

 

[Westyfield2]

Because they can afford to? If you took "fair" tax to the extreme you just devide the amount of tax required by the amount of people who pay tax. Would that be fair too? I am not arguing against the idea of "fair tax" but more of the usage of the word fair when it really is subjective when it comes to taxation.

"Fair" is also very subjective when it comes to voting reform too. You can argue that most voting systems are fair and at the same time they are unfair. Same goes for tax.

Why is that so hard to grasp?

The only fair tax would be taxing everyone the same amount of £.

Though taking it one step fairer would be if they did a calculation of (for example) number of bin bags per week X amount of benefits claimed + amount of crimes comitted X costs incured to the NHS = Your Tax Bill

TBH I think the closest to "fair" we'll ever get is a flat percentage. Guess it would have to be around 35%

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Why shouldn't low earners be able to enjoy more of the rewards for their hard work?

They can, by pursuing a pay rise.

 

[Lakeland]

Inheritance is completely unearned income, it's getting a huge wodge of cash that you never lifted a finger for. It serves entirely to propogate privilege and is as unmeritocratic as you can get. Tax on inheritance is the single fairest tax in our entire system. I'm glad to see Tory plans for a massive giveaway to the richest in our society scotched.

Are you even on this planet? Where do you think the money came from in the first place, a money tree? It has already been taxed

 

[Cosimo]

The cabinet so far:

Prime Minister - David Cameron
Deputy Prime Minister - Nick Clegg
Foreign Secretary - William Hague
Chancellor - George Osborne
Home Secretary And Minister For Women And Equality - Theresa May
Defence Secretary - Dr Liam Fox
Lord Chancellor And Secretary Of State For Justice - Ken Clarke
Health Secretary - Andrew Lansley
Education Secretary - Michael Gove
Business Secretary - Vince Cable
Energy And Climate Change - Chris Huhne
Chief Secretary To The Treasury - David Laws
Scottish Secretary - Danny Alexander

More:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8675705.stm

 

[Hatter The Mad]

How is giving people huge sums of unearned income fair? Why is it fair that the children of the rich get a massive unmeritocratic leg up in life? As for ability to pay, it's a massive chunk of unearned income! Ability to pay doesn't come into it, because you're not taxing something anyone has earned.

What is fair about removing the individual's right to give that money to their children?

 

[Mr Jack]

So you wouldn't want your years of hard work to help your children? We're not talking about buying Ralf another Ferrari here; we're talking about families not being forced to sell homes which may have been in the family for years. We're talking about a dead father being able to give his son that House deposit, savings security or cash for retirement. Possibly even providing the sort of inheritance which means a grandson can go to University, or take that placement for a year in the U.S.

Except that all of that is easily possible within the current levels of inheritance tax. You don't need to ramp up the threshold to a level that will only benefit the very rich to provide enough money to pay for a house deposit.

And as for house's being in families for years, why does having a rich ancestor entitle you to such a leg up in life?

What a repugnant society it is where the dead are taxed.

The dead aren't taxed; they're dead. They own nothing.