2022 mini-budget discussion

[Devilman]

Why didn't Labour change rtb, why didn't they reinvest the money. rtb funds to social housing. Labour had a long time to make adjustments to RTB but did not. Labour created lots of new laws, they even made London the surveillance capital of the world.

Gordon Brown destroyed pensions with his pension raids, this cause pension funds to find new avenues, making it more sensitive to lesser shocks. But somehow the media have forgotten about that.

You see it is not as simple as you say.

Why didn't the Tories change RtB in the last 12 years when the problem had become so apparent by then as the shortfall between replacement Council Houses for the ones being sold was even more significant and evident by the time they took power in 2010?

The Tories also created quite a few new laws, including those regarding protesting and changes to parliament to reduce oversight? They even put the son of an ex KGB/FSB officer into the Lords!

That wasn't a "lesser shock" we experienced, it was as a direct result of the mini-budget and the continuing stupidity being displayed from No10 and No11. The entire global markets responded and pensions had to be "propped up" by the BoE. Even if pensions had become "more sensitive to lesser shocks" they would still have been just as "at risk" as our currency was, as we rapidly approached £1/$1.

You keep saying "Labour did this, or Labour didn't do that" while seemingly being completely unwilling or unable to level the same faults at the current and / or previous Tory Government. That would suggest this is less about objective reality and more about what you "feel" is the party for you

 

[matt100]

Why didn't Labour change rtb, why didn't they reinvest the money. rtb funds to social housing. Labour had a long time to make adjustments to RTB but did not. Labour created lots of new laws, they even made London the surveillance capital of the world.

Gordon Brown destroyed pensions with his pension raids, this cause pension funds to find new avenues, making it more sensitive to lesser shocks. But somehow the media have forgotten about that.

You see it is not as simple as you say.

Have you got shares in the conservative party or something?

They've been in power now for as long as labour were before.. give it up, they've had more than enough time to undo/fix anything you think was wrong.

 

[Mrwong]

It does but how deep you're choosing to go is seemingly restricted to 'but Labour'. It would be very disingenuous to suggest that on the one hand it goes deeper than this but at the same time moan about what did Labour do.

The reason people point to Tories and right to buy is because i would assume that's where most people consider the problem started. Should Labour have done more to reverse that? Sure. However you seem to be ignoring any and all reasons for them not doing so, the question is are you doing that because you're ignorant of the possible reasons or are you doing it because you want to pit one group against another instead of holding those responsible to account.

Isn't that what the posters are doing pitting one group against another?

I am holding those responsible to account.

House prices were affordable until 2002.

Rtb was a good policy, right to buy gave those a chance to have a property. The idea was great, implementation was poor.

 

[omnomnom]

More to the point... Even if labour is the big, bad bogeyman and started all this... He's still continuing to ignore the planet-sized elephant in the room, which is the question "Why then, did the Tories not reverse said policies to undo what Labour did, in the last 12 years they have have led this Country?

Anything and everything can easily be blamed on Labour and hell, it could even be true, all of it.. but it still does not excuse the Tories for doing nothing at all about it for the last 12 years, if what Labour did was in fact so catastrophically terrible for the country that it's causing all these problems now?

Precisely. The way some Tories and Truss herself have been going on is like she's just won a general election and taken power from Labour. Maybe if Truss was on the front bench for the last 10 years she might have been able to right the wrongs she speaks of....oh.

Its bizarre the way some cling on and try and deflect when its right there in their face.

 

[Mrwong]

Why can't you address the many points other posters have raised with you?
Why are you starting to sound like a broken record with your 'but the government from 12 years ago'?

Indeed, but every time anyone attempts to get you to elucidate you refuse, why?

Because I already said the problems arise from previous governments. But you fail to see the logic in this.
You are currently holding this government accountability for all the previous policies by previous governments.

Most here are so anti Tory they can't see what I have said.

 

[Richie]

Because I already said the problems arise from previous governments. But you fail to see the logic in this.
You are currently holding this government accountability for all the previous policies by previous governments.

No you don't... You blame it all on the previous Labour government and have never mentioned the Conservative government prior to them...

At least try and be honest

 

[Devilman]

Isn't that what the posters are doing pitting one group against another?

I am holding those responsible to account.

House prices were affordable until 2002.

Rtb was a good policy, right to buy gave those a chance to have a property. The idea was great, implementation was poor.

It may be what some posters in the thread are doing, but many of us are simply asking you to either elaborate on, or responding to comments / claims made by others, just as we are with you.

You are not holding those responsible to account. You are selectively holding those you choose to account while giving everything else that isn't Labour a seemingly free pass.

And what have the Tories done since 2010 to attempt to address the house price problem? Do you think they have done enough?

You're also consistently asking "why didn't Labour overturn RtB" when RtB itself was introduced and implemented by the Tories and they have had almost 30 years in power to oversee it's running and have utter failed in that regard.


*tangent thought*
Remember back in 2010 when the Tory Party took power? Our currency stood at around £1.52 to the Dollar... Just 12 years of Tory leadership later and we watch our currency impersonate a lemming towards parity. We have effectively lost 1/3rd of our "worth" as a nation. One Third!! in just 12 years. - Let that sink in for a moment.

 

[Murphy]

Isn't that what the posters are doing pitting one group against another?

I am holding those responsible to account.

House prices were affordable until 2002.

Rtb was a good policy, right to buy gave those a chance to have a property. The idea was great, implementation was poor.

No, that's what you're seemingly trying to do. Other posters are trying to get to the bottom of your thought process and why you're seemingly so quick to blame one group while apparently finding no fault in the other.

You're clearly not holding those responsible to account as demonstrated by your lack of objectiveness, house prices being affordable until 2002 being a perfect example of that as they were unfordable a good two decades before then, and as demonstrated by your claim that right-to-buy was a good policy while, again, seeming to ignore the context surrounding it.

 

[Mrwong]

No you don't... You blame it all on the previous Labour government and have never mentioned the Conservative government prior to them...

At least try and be honest

Hold on, all I heard in here is Tory this Tory that, blame the Tories ... Pitch forks out for the Tories.
I never saw you once blame labour.

If you read my posts you see that I take about governments and their policies.

Unfortunately Gordon brown messed up the pension industry. Under labour government we had the biggest increases in house prices that is a fact.
Affordability destroyed for the average worker.

People here talk about Russian money and Tories, yet they forget that Russian money was introduced by Labour.

But again to many anti Tories, just like inflation is because of Brexit and fail to see that it is global.

 

[Murphy]

Because I already said the problems arise from previous governments. But you fail to see the logic in this.
You are currently holding this government accountability for all the previous policies by previous governments.

Most here are so anti Tory they can't see what I have said.

Did you even read what you responded to? Because if so perhaps you'd like to explain to me what part of the above relates, in anyway whatsoever, to this...

Why can't you address the many points other posters have raised with you?
Why are you starting to sound like a broken record with your 'but the government from 12 years ago'?

Indeed, but every time anyone attempts to get you to elucidate you refuse, why?

As i can't see where you address the point of you not addressing the many points other posters have made, i can't see where you addressed why you're starting to sound like a broken record, and i can't see where you've addressed why every time someone asks you to elucidate on these things you claim are not simple you seem incapable of doing so.

 

[Richie]

Hold on, all I heard in here is Tory this Tory that, blame the Tories ... Pitch forks out for the Tories.
I never saw you once blame labour.

I haven't blamed any previous governments as, unlike your good self, I realise the current government has had long enough to improve the country but they've actually made things worse.

I would be stating the same regardless of the party in power if we were in the same position as we are now - Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem, SNP, Greens or whoever was in power for over a decade.

If you read my posts you see that I take about governments and their policies.

Unfortunately Gordon brown messed up the pension industry. Under labour government we had the biggest increases in house prices that is a fact.
Affordability destroyed for the average worker.

People here talk about Russian money and Tories, yet they forget that Russian money was introduced by Labour.

But again to many anti Tories, just like inflation is because of Brexit and fail to see that it is global.

I rest my case - your atgument only seems to extend to the previous Labour government... Are you suggesting that the previous Conservative government left the country as a pinnacle of excellence?

 

[Mrwong]

It may be what some posters in the thread are doing, but many of us are simply asking you to either elaborate on, or responding to comments / claims made by others, just as we are with you.

You are not holding those responsible to account. You are selectively holding those you choose to account while giving everything else that isn't Labour a seemingly free pass.

And what have the Tories done since 2010 to attempt to address the house price problem? Do you think they have done enough?

You're also consistently asking "why didn't Labour overturn RtB" when RtB itself was introduced and implemented by the Tories and they have had almost 30 years in power to oversee it's running and have utter failed in that regard.


*tangent thought*
Remember back in 2010 when the Tory Party took power? Our currency stood at around £1.52 to the Dollar... Just 12 years of Tory leadership later and we watch our currency impersonate a lemming towards parity. We have effectively lost 1/3rd of our "worth" as a nation. One Third!! in just 12 years. - Let that sink in for a moment.

Lol the pound has been dropping under labour, but again highlight Tories not labour.

I can see you dislike Tories but you fail to see policies implemented by labour that have lead us to this point. You can't admit that labour have contributed to the mess.

 

[Mrwong]

It may be what some posters in the thread are doing, but many of us are simply asking you to either elaborate on, or responding to comments / claims made by others, just as we are with you.

You are not holding those responsible to account. You are selectively holding those you choose to account while giving everything else that isn't Labour a seemingly free pass.

And what have the Tories done since 2010 to attempt to address the house price problem? Do you think they have done enough?

You're also consistently asking "why didn't Labour overturn RtB" when RtB itself was introduced and implemented by the Tories and they have had almost 30 years in power to oversee it's running and have utter failed in that regard.


*tangent thought*
Remember back in 2010 when the Tory Party took power? Our currency stood at around £1.52 to the Dollar... Just 12 years of Tory leadership later and we watch our currency impersonate a lemming towards parity. We have effectively lost 1/3rd of our "worth" as a nation. One Third!! in just 12 years. - Let that sink in for a moment.

Lol the pound has been dropping under labour, but again highlight Tories not labour.

I can see you dislike Tories but you fail to see policies implemented by labour that have lead us to this point. You can't admit that labour have contributed to the mess

I haven't blamed any previous governments as, unlike your good self, I realise the current government has had long enough to improve the country but they've actually made things worse.

I would be stating the same regardless of the party in power if we were in the same position as we are now - Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem, SNP, Greens or whoever was in power for over a decade.



I rest my case - your atgument only seems to extend to the previous Labour government... Are you suggesting that the previous Conservative government left the country as a pinnacle of excellence?

Again using your argument how far back do you want me to go?

You can't see that previous polices by previous governments caused this.

 

[adidan]

Hold on, all I heard in here is Tory this Tory that, blame the Tories ... Pitch forks out for the Tories.
I never saw you once blame labour.

If you read my posts you see that I take about governments and their policies.

Unfortunately Gordon brown messed up the pension industry. Under labour government we had the biggest increases in house prices that is a fact.
Affordability destroyed for the average worker.

People here talk about Russian money and Tories, yet they forget that Russian money was introduced by Labour.

But again to many anti Tories, just like inflation is because of Brexit and fail to see that it is global.

Let's just ignore what's happening now then because mistakes were made in the past.

You can keep going back and back and find blame. Why did Thatcher sell all the council housing that's created a long term housing problem, why didn't we create a North sea fund like the Norwegians who now own, iirc, about 1.5% of all, yes all, listed equities in the world (that would help a bit no?).

You cannot keep avoiding blame and distracting. We have more pressing issues right now that have to be dealt with.

 

[Uther]

So for Mrwrong, after 12 years of Con government, it's still all Labours fault.
Brilliant.

 

[Richie]

Again using your argument how far back do you want me to go?

That's my point...

I don't want you to go any further back than a decade as, IMHO, I think it's reasonable to believe that a government shouldn't really take more than a decade to put policies in place (or revoke previous policies) in order to improve the country.

I'll use generic terms so as to try and stop bias clouding opinions

Now, had the current government been in power for 5 years, then absolutely, we can put some blame on the previous government as I feel it can take a while for policies to bear fruit. However, that is not the case here. The current government has had well over a decade to "right the wrongs" and improve the country but, not only has there been little to no improvement, the country is actually going backwards.


Simple question - has the country improved or become worse since the current government has assumed responsibility for it?

 

[Mrwong]

Let's just ignore what's happening now then because mistakes were made in the past.

You can keep going back and back and find blame. Why did Thatcher sell all the council housing that's created a long term housing problem, why didn't we create a North sea fund like the Norwegians who now own, iirc, about 1.5% of all, yes all, listed equities in the world (that would help a bit no?).

You cannot keep avoiding blame and distracting. We have more pressing issues right now that have to be dealt with.

Explain to me why rtb caused a housing problem?
Our population is growing, so housing needs to grow.

Please tell me why council homes have not been built to replace the ones sold?

 

[Devilman]

I'll tackle these 2 in reverse order since it seems more appropriate...

I can see you dislike Tories but you fail to see policies implemented by labour that have lead us to this point. You can't admit that labour have contributed to the mess.

You're incorrect.. I dislike what the current and preceeding Tory governments have done and the "matter of fact" is that it is not because "they're Tory, hurrdurr", but because objectively they have done a terrible job, trashed the country and it's reputation, ruined public services, treated those on benefits like common thieves while cutting tax breaks to the rich, paid for by the poor (borrowing). They could be called "The Pink White Green Blue Party" and I would still call them abject failures and a detriment to the average member of the UK population. Their party name, their banner colour... None of that matters in the slightest to me. The fact they are utterly terrible does.

In fact if you go back a few pages you'll clearly see me holding Labour equally to blame for not creating, or maintaining any kind of long-term energy policy, along with preceeding and successive Tory governments on either side of it.

However, You also have not actually expanded on *which* Labour policies you believe were / are in error that they should have been overturned by (or would never have been implemented by) The Tories. - Which of course begs that old elephant question again, why did they not address it in the last 12 years they have had the opportunity to?

Please, give us specific examples of Labour policies or things they did (besides Iraq War) that you have issue with? At least then we can have a a genuine discussion on the potential contribution they may have had on what we see now - Which seems to be what you're suggesting by mentioning how policies take time for their effects to be felt and we're just experiencing the fallout of "What Labour Did"

*tagent thought*
Sounds like a bad movie... "From the Makers of Scream...... I know what Labour did last summer"

Lol the pound has been dropping under labour, but again highlight Tories not labour.

Are you sure you really want to make that claim?

Really sure?

Phone a friend?

The data History would disagree with you, while there was a "dip" around 2000-2002 and the obvious "global financial crash" in 2008 we can clearly see the trends here...

 

[Mrwong]

That's my point...

I don't want you to go any further back than a decade as, IMHO, I think it's reasonable to believe that a government shouldn't really take more than a decade to put policies in place (or revoke previous policies) in order to improve the country.

I'll use generic terms so as to try and stop bias clouding opinions

Now, had the current government been in power for 5 years, then absolutely, we can put some blame on the previous government as I feel it can take a while for policies to bear fruit. However, that is not the case here. The current government has had well over a decade to "right the wrongs" and improve the country but, not only has there been little to no improvement, the country is actually going backwards.


Simple question - has the country improved or become worse since the current government has assumed responsibility for it?

Blame the voters, blame this culture, blame immigration ( people don't like this point but it is the truth).
Blame we want it now and we do not want to wait.
They can't keep everyone happy but are trying too.

 

[Richie]

Blame the voters, blame this culture, blame immigration ( people don't like this point but it is the truth).
Blame we want it now and we do not want to wait.
They can't keep everyone happy but are trying too.

You want to blame the population for government policy?

If that's the case, why are you blaming previous governments during their terms and not the population at those times?