2025 road fund

[Nasher]

Generally people driving old bangers do so because that is what they can afford. You can't tax these people more for only being able to afford an old car, that is inherently wrong and would be political suicide for any party that chooses to go that route.

I was behind a 2015 Focus the other day spewing **** out of the exhaust. I'd wager that a well maintained Peugeot 1.9 TD would have less environmental impact that that particular POS.

Not always. The multi-millionaire owner of a company I used to work for drove around in an old Focus. Because he was quite tight, didn't see the need for anything more and didn't want to worry about parking it in town.

Usually if there is a trail of smoke coming out of an exhaust it's on it's last legs anyway. Old diesels should only smoke a bit on cold start or when you floor it. Mine doesn't smoke once warm despite being to old for a DPF. Like I mentioned earlier though it seemed to get worse after biodiesel appeared at pumps.

 

[SDK^]

I was behind a 2015 Focus the other day spewing **** out of the exhaust.

This year I've had that misfortune twice, both Ford Focus's of around that year

 

[jaybee]

Generally people driving old bangers do so because that is what they can afford. You can't tax these people more for only being able to afford an old car, that is inherently wrong and would be political suicide for any party that chooses to go that route.

I was behind a 2015 Focus the other day spewing **** out of the exhaust. I'd wager that a well maintained Peugeot 1.9 TD would have less environmental impact that that particular POS.

Yeah. As much as my £415 a year to tax Ford S-Max 2007 is old and expensive to run and tax. A newer car will be thousands upon thousands and therefore I continue to run it into the ground for now. I think a lot must be in the same situation, but all I feel like I see on the roads are cars newer than mine!

I think the VAG 1.9's are good aren't they? They seem to be legendary reliable 1.9 TD engine cars from what I hear even with high miles. What is the newest model year stuff you can buy with this engine in a 4 door normal sized, decently spec'd car, and are they ULEZ compliant? I would assume not.

 

[Haggisman]

Yeah. As much as my £415 a year to tax Ford S-Max 2007 is old and expensive to run and tax. A newer car will be thousands upon thousands and therefore I continue to run it into the ground for now. I think a lot must be in the same situation, but all I feel like I see on the roads are cars newer than mine!

I think the VAG 1.9's are good aren't they? They seem to be legendary reliable 1.9 TD engine cars from what I hear even with high miles. What is the newest model year stuff you can buy with this engine in a 4 door normal sized, decently spec'd car, and are they ULEZ compliant? I would assume not.

You're probably looking around 2009 for one without a DPF, definitely not ULEZ compliant though, the Birmingham CAZ is the reason I got rid of my perfectly running 1.9 TDI PD Octavia

I'm sure it's great for the environment to scrap a perfectly good car, but having to pay £8/day to drop my other half at work was a **** take.

 

[SDK^]

Generally people driving old bangers do so because that is what they can afford. You can't tax these people more for only being able to afford an old car, that is inherently wrong and would be political suicide for any party that chooses to go that route.

Yep I understand this from my own side.

But

The overall political and environment goal is Net Zero and this new system means :
- It's okay to pollute more if you are poor
- It's okay to tax those in cleaner vehicles, because they can afford it

The target is either Net Zero or increased tax revenue - From April 2025, it's neither
The people actually helping assist the targets to be met, are paying more tax.

How is this an incentive to change?!
e.g. One of the reasons why EV's (new and used) aren't selling as well as they could, is because fuel is so cheap (prices frozen for years, so effectively a price reduction) and the tax cheaper.

 

[jpaul]

The people actually helping assist the targets to be met, are paying more tax.

when you put the BIK saving on the 75/80% of total ev's sold to fleets into the equation, are they still paying more tax.

I had kept my old 2000's 3er/6pot because it was fun to drive, despite paying high road tax which seemed unfair because it was only doing a few 1000k/pa
so let's pay for the actual pollution and road wear we create.

Government does need to let the less well off get to work, otherwise that messes up the economy, and like the french gilet-jaune protests we'd have legitimate protests if they put up diesel excessively.

 

[SDK^]

when you put the BIK saving on the 75/80% of total ev's sold to fleets into the equation, are they still paying more tax.

The BIK savings apply to a small sector of the buying population.
All of the media reporting after every SMMT new car registration data update this year has been 'Private buyers are declining'. Where is the incentive for them to switch to a cleaner vehicle?
From April EV users pay £180 (I think) VED, yet older diesels are paying £20 - it makes zero sense given the huge investment in cleaner energy, and the targets set in place.

If the Government are serious about meeting the environment targets, then at some point there needs to be higher incentives for people to switch to cleaner vehicles (EV's, Hydrogen, Synthetic....etc)

 

[jaybee]

The whole system seems broken to be honest. In the grand scheme of things as well we push to get to net zero whilst turning a blind eye to the damage say China do globally, all the while the cost of living crisis is crippling the UK. But hey net zero guys.

 

[Nasher]

You're probably looking around 2009 for one without a DPF, definitely not ULEZ compliant though, the Birmingham CAZ is the reason I got rid of my perfectly running 1.9 TDI PD Octavia

I'm sure it's great for the environment to scrap a perfectly good car, but having to pay £8/day to drop my other half at work was a **** take.

Most of the ULEZ cameras on the outside of London don't even work, it seems like TFL has admitted defeat on many of the quieter roads. If you sign up for the autopay system it tells you if your car got picked up. I've been in and out of outer London a couple of times and it didn't see me, so I didn't pay.

Birmingham is a bit different, but I read the city is so broke they don't have the money to chase non-payers lol. They wrote off 100,000s of fines last year.

The whole system seems broken to be honest. In the grand scheme of things as well we push to get to net zero whilst turning a blind eye to the damage say China do globally, all the while the cost of living crisis is crippling the UK. But hey net zero guys.

China and India undo pretty much anything we can do pollution wise, many times over. The UK is a tiny percentage.

 

[SDK^]

The whole system seems broken to be honest. In the grand scheme of things as well we push to get to net zero whilst turning a blind eye to the damage say China do globally, all the while the cost of living crisis is crippling the UK. But hey net zero guys.

China and India undo pretty much anything we can do pollution wise, many times over. The UK is a tiny percentage.

I'm really not interested in what China is doing - The focus for UK people, should be this country. e.g. A China coal power station has zero impact on the tailpipe pollution on UK streets.
It reminds me of my son - who occasionally says - 'but 'x' person in school is allowed to do it' - who cares !

But, if you want to talk about China - look up their renewable energy role out - It's massive !!
More than the whole of the rest of the world.....COMBINED, and they are ahead of their own targets. Yes, they still build & commission new coal and gas power stations, but renewable energy is their main focus now.

 

[Nasher]

I'm really not interested in what China is doing - The focus for UK people, should be this country.
It reminds me of my son - who occasionally says - 'but 'x' person in school is allowed to do it' - who cares !

But, if you want to talk about China - look up their renewable energy role out - It's massive !!
More than the whole of the rest world.....COMBINED, and they are ahead of their own targets. Yes, they still build & commission new coal and gas power stations, but renewable energy is their main focus now.

No point in destroying our own economy for nothing though. Loads of old cars are still on the road because no one has any spare cash, "net zero" and wars are driving up the prices of everything. The public needs to have money before things can progress.

The same is happening across the EU. While the developing world is pushing ahead and not giving a crap.

 

[jpaul]

born had posted on chinas renewable prowess too ... but now confirming the reality/percentages

In 2023, clean power made up 35% of China's electricity mix, including hydro at 13%, and wind and solar at 16%. In 2023, clean power made up 35% of China's electricity mix, with hydro the largest single source of clean power at 13%. Wind and solar hit a new record share of 16%, above the global average (13%).2 Oct 2024

so, the sooner we impose carbon border tax on products, like the eu , that will level the field - they impact the planet on our behalf.

meanwhile if we just increase petrol/diesel taxes, or tax on tailpipe emissions, less well off people won't be able to get to work ... upending the economy.

 

[Minstadave]

Bit odd to tax ICE cars based on CO2 but non-CO2 producing vehicles get a flat rate well above the lowest band for ICE vehicles.

Even more odd that hybrids get taxed a flat rate rather than the standard ICE rate based on CO2. Will this mean a 320e pay more than a 320i in tax despite being more efficient and less polluting?

Can't see this (or the luxury car tax) helping with moving away from ICE.

 

[Haggisman]

Bit odd to tax ICE cars based on CO2 but non-CO2 producing vehicles get a flat rate well above the lowest band for ICE vehicles.

Not to mention the fact they've applied it retrospectively to those vehicles registered up to 8 years ago!

Then there's the removal of the exemption to the "expensive" car supplement, which will cover a disproportionate percentage of EVs, which are more expensive purely by virtue of being EVs.

It's almost as if they don't have a clue what they're doing...

"Let's try to get everyone into EVs (which are already a compromise for many people), by our already unrealistic target date... and let's make it even less realistic by de-incentivising them further"

 

[lordrobs]

Not to mention the fact they've applied it retrospectively to those vehicles registered up to 8 years ago!

Then there's the removal of the exemption to the "expensive" car supplement, which will cover a disproportionate percentage of EVs, which are more expensive purely by virtue of being EVs.

It's almost as if they don't have a clue what they're doing...

"Let's try to get everyone into EVs (which are already a compromise for many people), by our already unrealistic target date... and let's make it even less realistic by de-incentivising them further"

They knew exactly what they were doing - bait and switch. The problem was that the bait wasn't juicy enough for most and they are pulling the switch before the majority of the public are on the hook.

But

The overall political and environment goal is Net Zero and this new system means :
- It's okay to pollute more if you are poor
- It's okay to tax those in cleaner vehicles, because they can afford it

The target is either Net Zero or increased tax revenue - From April 2025, it's neither
The people actually helping assist the targets to be met, are paying more tax.

How is this an incentive to change?!
e.g. One of the reasons why EV's (new and used) aren't selling as well as they could, is because fuel is so cheap (prices frozen for years, so effectively a price reduction) and the tax cheaper.

Doesn't this come under the catch all of "Those with the broadest shoulders..."?

VED is a revenue stream for the government and today's government is playing the "Tory's left a big hole" card so expect VED to be wrung as tightly as possible without causing mass backlash. CO2 was only ever a metric against which to balance the numbers for the agenda of the day.

Today's agenda is revenue generation. Generally speaking EV owners are considered "those with the broadest shoulders" so are fair game. Unlike "Working people" in their £20 VED diesels.

Any environmental agenda is simply going to be rammed home via ZEV mandate and the 2030/35 ban on ICE vehicles.

Just wait until all the EV owners realise what will happen to their running costs once the standing charge disappears from our energy bills...

 

[Haggisman]

They knew exactly what they were doing - bait and switch. The problem was that the bait wasn't juicy enough for most and they are pulling the switch before the majority of the public are on the hook.

I think you're giving them too much credit. It wouldn't suprise me if nobody put 2 and 2 together and realised there would be a massive drop in VED revenue as people move to EV, and suddenly the penny has dropped and now they're panicking about it.

Just wait until all the EV owners realise what will happen to their running costs once the standing charge disappears from our energy bills...

I think they'll struggle with that, there's no realistic way to separate normal domestic usage from car charging, not to mention those with solar panels and home batteries

 

[dlockers]

Just wait until all the EV owners realise what will happen to their running costs once the standing charge disappears from our energy bills...

What does that even mean?

 

[Simon]

What does that even mean?

That 50p a day is bankrupting some people. Apparently people have houses that don’t need electric and only for cars. God knows

 

[lordrobs]

What does that even mean?

That 50p a day is bankrupting some people. Apparently people have houses that don’t need electric and only for cars. God knows

It means that the money that no longer comes from the standing charge will need to come from somewhere else, which will obviously be by a (marginal) increase in the unit rate.

It will make next to no difference but in the context of people feeling put out that they need to pay VED and congestion charge in their EVs I'm sure there will be much grumbling bundled in with net zero talk.

 

[dlockers]

It means that the money that no longer comes from the standing charge will need to come from somewhere else, which will obviously be by a (marginal) increase in the unit rate.

It will make next to no difference but in the context of people feeling put out that they need to pay VED and congestion charge in their EVs I'm sure there will be much grumbling bundled in with net zero talk.

You like paying taxes?