20mph residential speed limit (replacing 30mph)

[Rroff]

I can read thanks. It is also why I linked the articles because I know most of you can read as well. A reduction of speed limit from 30 to 20 mph has limited impact on the environment overall but helps reduce fatalities in collisions (the reason it was introduced). Reducing the speed to 20mph during rush hours would have zero effect on emissions but help during non peak periods.

Really what we have is people suddenly pretending they care about the environmental impact moaning over nothing. How many of these same people are anti EV?

It reeks of using any excuse to moan about something that is proven to help reduce collisions and fatalities. Stop pretending you suddenly guve a crap about the environmental impact (if any).

To significantly increase safety we need to (somehow) address driving standards and the amount of attention people pay, if we are really concerned about safety where is the limit? 10 MPH would significantly cut fatalities.

What I do care about is things being done to produce meaningful real world results and for the right reasons.

EDIT: Besides in the real world average traffic speeds in 20s outside of where congestion limits it is between 22 and 30MPH depending on study (averaging about 26 with 85% exceeding the limit) while average traffic speed in 30s is 31 MPH (with ~50% exceeding the limit) so not hugely different in terms of potential for injury while those driving significantly above the speed limit will largely continue to do so.

 

[ICDP]

The 10mph argument is a strawmen. Improving driving standards is all well and good but far too many people only think of themselves when driving. I know people who have been on multiple driver training or speed awareness courses but still keep doing it. So a reduction of the speed limit is not going to stop them speeding. Many new cars have the ability to introduce dynamic speed limits, would that help? I wonder how many would complain about their "rights" being infringed.

During rush hour traffic how often do you get up to 30mph anyway, let alone 20? And if it is clear roads the stopping and starting for junctions and traffic lights etc makes the difference in travel time negligible.

 

[Rroff]

The 10mph argument is a strawmen. Improving driving standards is all well and good but far too many people only think of themselves when driving. I know people who have been on multiple driver training or speed awareness courses but still keep doing it. So a reduction of the speed limit is not going to stop them speeding. Many new cars have the ability to introduce dynamic speed limits, would that help? I wonder how many would complain about their "rights" being infringed.

During rush hour traffic how often do you get up to 30mph anyway, let alone 20? And if it is clear roads the stopping and starting for junctions and traffic lights etc makes the difference in travel time negligible.

Most modern cars have the systems in place to detect current speed limit and a speed limiter, I'm surprised more don't have features implemented to audibly warn when exceeding the limit and an optional one button dynamic soft limiter.

These systems are far from 100% accurate and more crucially lack real world context awareness so enforced speed limits would be stupid to implement.

 

[jpaul]

so could increase 30mph fines https://speedingeurope.com/theburger/ 71 doing 45 in a 30
if you would be fined £500 like Ch ....

would that get votes

 

[ICDP]

so could increase 30mph fines https://speedingeurope.com/theburger/ 71 doing 45 in a 30
if you would be fined £500 like Ch ....

would that get votes

I doubt it. Most of the complaints I have read on this subject are not down to the increased risk of speeding, but travel times and some faux outrage at emissions. Usually from the same people who tell us EVs are actually worse than ICE cars for emissions and will collapse all the car parks due to being heavier.

 

[Abraxaz1]

So had my first road rage incident today.

A road i regularly go on travels trough three villages and had eventuality become a super street. think just under 5 miles of continuous housing either side, it was 30mph its now a 20.

So im just doing twenty, fan has auto limiter on.

Chav in a range rover is up my arse, mouthing off and flashing lights but cant over take due to oncoming traffic.

He finally manages to overtake, then break checks me...

Gets out of his car and starts ranting, just drove round him. Repeat until i pull of into a off shoot road.

the new speed limit is making things testy, i think ill purchase a few dash cams for the vans.

 

[ICDP]

So had my first road rage incident today.

A road i regularly go on travels trough three villages and had eventuality become a super street. think just under 5 miles of continuous housing either side, it was 30mph its now a 20.

So im just doing twenty, fan has auto limiter on.

Chav in a range rover is up my arse, mouthing off and flashing lights but cant over take due to oncoming traffic.

He finally manages to overtake, then break checks me...

Gets out of his car and starts ranting, just drove round him. Repeat until i pull of into a off shoot road.

the new speed limit is making things testy, i think ill purchase a few dash cams for the vans.

This is not a new trend, something tells me they would have done the same thing if you were sitting at 30mph in a 30 zone.

 

[lordrobs]

This is not a new trend, something tells me they would have done the same thing if you were sitting at 30mph in a 30 zone.

I don't know. I've never had anyone get their knickers in a twist over me doing 30 in a 30 but I have had a woman in an A3 stuck on my bumper while doing 20 in a 20 repeatedly doing this weird hands to the side of her head then thrusting them forwards motion, I assume telling me to get moving. It was pretty hilarious in all honesty but I can imaging Abraxaz's experience being far less so.

 

[ICDP]

And yet the "bad driving encounters" thread is full of this behaviour, 20 limit or not. I witness one or more of this behaviour the majority of times I drive on my commute, regardless of the speed limit.

• Flashing lights
• Tailgating
• Cutting up/in
• Judicious angry horn use
• Weaving in and out behind you to intimidate you
• Overtaking dangerously
• Road rage and abuse because of some perceived slight on them

Go watch some of the UK Dash Cam videos and the majority of crap that happens is because people simply have no patience. Of course you get the complete muppets who don't know lane discipline or the highway code. But by far the biggest number of issues are the people who just behave the way I have outlined above,

The fact that some muppets act like that is not a good reason to declare the 20 mph limit doesn't do its intended job of reducing fatalities. My own experience is that depsite the urban roads I use being 30 mph, the majority of times I am on them you get nowhere near that in rush hour. Hell 15mph is a stretch most of the time.

 

[Bint Box]

Sunak looking for straws to clutch to avoid a demolition job at next years election.
Anything he thinks will retain voters gets spouted nowadays, his comments on the 20mph limit is a cynical attempt to shore up the wall.

 

[Iamzod]

Not true

Cruising in 2nd gear uses the same amount of fuel & produces the same emmissions as cruising in 4th over the same distance?

 

[ICDP]

Cruising in 2nd gear uses the same amount of fuel & produces the same emmissions as cruising in 4th over the same distance?

You forgot at lower speeds which would reduce brake dust and tyre wear the slower you go. When all factors are considered the difference is marginal at best. That link with real tests showing 2% - 3% difference in the Dublin trial for example.

But the emissions thing is a straw man because this legislation was brought in to reduce fatalities.

 

[ZXSpectrum]

So had my first road rage incident today.

A road i regularly go on travels trough three villages and had eventuality become a super street. think just under 5 miles of continuous housing either side, it was 30mph its now a 20.

So im just doing twenty, fan has auto limiter on.

Chav in a range rover is up my arse, mouthing off and flashing lights but cant over take due to oncoming traffic.

He finally manages to overtake, then break checks me...

Gets out of his car and starts ranting, just drove round him. Repeat until i pull of into a off shoot road.

the new speed limit is making things testy, i think ill purchase a few dash cams for the vans.

LOL A mate of mine had a very similar incident down in Norwich a few years back. Guy in a brown/bronze mini countryman. Was trying to intimidate him surging right up to his bumper shouting waving hands etc. Nothing my mate could do as he was doing the limit and there was no pull in area as it was back country roads. Got to a populated area and he floors it going past at about 60-70 in a 30, shouting etc, mate tells him to f-off!. Little way down the road are some temporary traffic lights and he pulls up and gets out the car threatening shouting being very aggressive. My mate puts into gear, bounces him off the bonnet and leaves him in the kerb licking his wounds. Mate pulls into a back street and calls the police straight away and goes to the nearest police station and shows them the dashcam footage. The police actually took the SD card and viewed it and actually went to the guys house (Who apparently had previous for dangerous driving and threatening behaviour) and told him he had been reported and if he wanted to report my mate he would not get very far as they had clear footage of his driving and behaviour. They also said that he was right in being fearful of the threats and knocked him down out of panic. Nothing ever happened and his SD card was returned and we loved watching the ****** bounce off my mates bonnet\windscreen with a couple of beers on repeat, his face was priceless..

 

[Trifid]

He finally manages to overtake, then break checks me...

Gets out of his car and starts ranting, just drove round him. Repeat until i pull of into a off shoot road.

He was in a such a rush he got out his car for a chat. Hopefully he doesn't have heart attack while driving and take someone out with that rage.

 

[Iamzod]

You forgot at lower speeds which would reduce brake dust and tyre wear the slower you go. When all factors are considered the difference is marginal at best. That link with real tests showing 2% - 3% difference in the Dublin trial for example.

But the emissions thing is a straw man because this legislation was brought in to reduce fatalities.

On her trip computer, not accurate for an absolute figure I know, but useful to compare.

On a flat road, warm engine, back to back.

30mph in 4th - 116 mpg.
20mph in 3rd - 72 mpg (it struggles here as even idling it's doing 16mph, it won't go up an incline)
20mph in 2nd - 48mpg.

That's vastly different to 2-3%

 

[ICDP]

Just using MPG is extremely simplistic and will vary from car to car and more importantly does not tell the entire picture. For example was that also factoring in the increased brake dust and tyre wear particles? Don't confuse MPG in YOUR car with overal emissions for all cars and assume "that is way more than 2-3%". I don't mean this to sound condescending, but actual scientific data suggests no real difference in traffic emissions at 20 vs 30.

Yet again you are trying to argue about emissions will go up but I have shown data that overall emissions will stay largely the same. We are also going off track again because the 20 mph speed limit reduction was to reduce fatalities, not emissions.

To put it another way, emissions are less at 50mph, should we increase the urban speed limits to 50mph?

I found this enjoyable and I know it is anecdotal but relevant.

 

[200sols]

Just using MPG is extremely simplistic and will vary from car to car and more importantly does not tell the entire picture. Don't confuse MPG with overal emissions and assume "that is way more than 2-3%". I don't mean this to sound condescending, but actual scientific data beats a random guy on the internet telling me his wife's car get way less MPG at 20 vs 30.

Yet again you are trying to argue about emissions will go up but I have shown data that overall emissions will stay largely the same. We are also going off track again because the 20 mph speed limit reduction was to reduce fatalities, not emissions.

To put it another way, emissions are less at 50mph, should we increase the urban speed limits to 50mph?

You mean the scientific data that was refuted earlier? Or have you posted some new data I missed?

Premature deaths each year caused by air pollution far outnumber those caused by car incidents in this country so if the aim is to reduce deaths then local pollution very much matters
Nobody is arguing for 50mph urban limits either that's a silly strawman.

 

[ICDP]

You mean the scientific data that was refuted earlier? Or have you posted some new data I missed?

Premature deaths each year caused by air pollution far outnumber those caused by car incidents in this country so if the aim is to reduce deaths then local pollution very much matters
Nobody is arguing for 50mph urban limits either that's a silly strawman.

No the data I posted earlier has not been refuted at all. I showed that the data is inconclusive and that at the differences are marginal at best.

This was counter to the claim that emissions were a lot worse and there has been no data to back that at all.

Yes my 50 mph comment was a deliberate straw man, it was meant to demonstrate how stupid claims can be made.

Can you provide independent data proving your claim that shows pollution rises significantly with 20mph limits and also that these 20 mph zones lead to more premature deaths?

 

[200sols]

Can you provide independent data proving your claim that shows pollution rises significantly with 20mph limits and also that these 20 mph zones lead to more premature deaths?

Thats not my claim, I'm using your own data where you are claiming 20mph reduces emissions or they stay the same but your own links say otherwise. Even a small rise in emissions will lead to more deaths than the 6-10 the Welsh govt say the blanket 20 limits will save annually. Blanket limits still make no sense and nothing you've said has convinced me otherwise yet.

 

[ICDP]

I was showing deliberately conflicting data that claimed the emissions would be reduced. And another that showed results were conflicted.

My claim is that emissions overall will not be a major factor either way and is a straw man. I was countering the anecdotal claims that emissions would much worse at slower speeds.

So if pollution and emissions is not a major factor then that leaves us with a reduction in road fatalities and a reduction in collisions. I’m sorry but to me both trump the fact that some ignorant impatient moron wants to drive a bit faster.