20mph residential speed limit (replacing 30mph)

[b0rn2sk8]

Bit of a check here, cars are designed to absorb pedestrian energy. Bikes arn't, locallised pressure of a handle bar on a child skull is likely to be worse than a soft deformable bumper and bonnet surface.

Which is fine but in reality bicycles don’t act as solid objects either. There whole frontal area is a leaver held in place a squishy human rider. In reality, it moves when it hits something which dramatically lowers the forces involved, not dissimilar to pedestrian safety design in a car. It’s also likely to be traveling at a slower speed.

True, but nothing to do with braking power. Even a rim brake on a bike has enough power to lift the back wheel off the ground, which is the point of maximum deceleration. Better brakes or more grip won't help at all. The limit is due to the relatively high centre of gravity, bracing the arms and keeping the weight as far back as possible increases it.

I looked up the numbers a while back and a cyclist can manage about 0.5G before the point where they go over the handlebars. Typical cars can manage between 0.7 and 1G.

The comment about a cyclist being able to stop more quickly is just what happens in the real world rather than a contrived brake test.

A collision with a predestination is much more likely to happen in an urban environment.

The cyclist is much more likely to be traveling more slowly than a car, it just can’t accelerate as fast. Most cyclists can’t sustain 20mph without a significant gradient on a bike anyway where as a car will happily cruise at 30 in the 20 without even thinking about it.

The cyclist is also much more likely to be paying attention to its surroundings and are more likely to avoid the collision in the first place given they are having to pay attention to all the cars trying to kill them.

Cyclists mix much more closely with pedestrians than cars but accident rates are lower and the KSI stats are not even measured on the same scale as car vs pedestrian.

Ask yourself, what would you be rather hit by, a cyclist or a car?

I’d take cyclist any day of the week.

 

[robj20]

Actually a car can stop in a shorter distance, often much shorter. The brakes are far more powerful relative to their weight and they have ABS.

Some bikes now have ABS.

 

[Nasher]

Which is fine but in reality bicycles don’t act as solid objects either. There whole frontal area is a leaver held in place a squishy human rider. In reality, it moves when it hits something which dramatically lowers the forces involved, not dissimilar to pedestrian safety design in a car. It’s also likely to be traveling at a slower speed.


The comment about a cyclist being able to stop more quickly is just what happens in the real world rather than a contrived brake test.

A collision with a predestination is much more likely to happen in an urban environment.

The cyclist is much more likely to be traveling more slowly than a car, it just can’t accelerate as fast. Most cyclists can’t sustain 20mph without a significant gradient on a bike anyway where as a car will happily cruise at 30 in the 20 without even thinking about it.

The cyclist is also much more likely to be paying attention to its surroundings and are more likely to avoid the collision in the first place given they are having to pay attention to all the cars trying to kill them.

Cyclists mix much more closely with pedestrians than cars but accident rates are lower and the KSI stats are not even measured on the same scale as car vs pedestrian.

Ask yourself, what would you be rather hit by, a cyclist or a car?

I’d take cyclist any day of the week.

Ever played rugby? Humans are not that squishy lol. People break skulls, necks and spines colliding with eachother even at a moderate running pace. There really is not much give before you hit muscle and bone. Add some metal bars in to the mix...

In London more people get injured by cyclists than cars. Most cyclists that get killed are squished by lorries while trying to undertake (which is why we now see warning stickers on the backs of lorries).

 

[dlockers]

In London more people get injured by cyclists than cars. Most cyclists that get killed are squished by lorries while trying to undertake.

In Space more people die from space stuff than earth stuff

 

[Brun]

Ever played rugby? Humans are not that squishy lol. People break skulls, necks and spines colliding with eachother even at a moderate running pace. There really is not much give before you hit muscle and bone. Add some metal bars in to the mix...

This explains all the news reports I see of cyclists crashing through the brick walls of houses, schools etc. Maybe bicycles should be designed with crumple zones.

In London more people get injured by cyclists than cars.

 

[jpaul]

Maybe bicycles should be designed with crumple zones.

well they are ... never hit anything with a bike ? your front wheel absorbs a fair amount of energy, mine was crushed before I went over the bonnet of car pulling out of pub
(insurance gave me a new set of forks too because we thought they had been bent)
Also, with the uk typically inclement weather your braking distance is pretty shot, you are sliding before you know it, rather than going over handlebars, and,
avoiding going sideways, is your biggest problem.

Still - speed limits should apply to cyclists too, does seem a disparity.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

In London more people get injured by cyclists than cars.

Source?

Spoiler, it just cant be true when national stats suggest cars are responsible for 80% injuries to pedestrians and 2% are attributed to cyclists.

Cycling and pedestrians | Cycling UK

It's essential to cater for people who walk, wheel or cycle, and to maximise harmony between them.

www.cyclinguk.org

Most cyclists that get killed are squished by lorries while trying to undertake (which is why we now see warning stickers on the backs of lorries).

Why is this relevant to a conversation about bike vs pedestrians?

 

[Diddums]

Source?

 

[Brun]

well they are ... never hit anything with a bike ? your front wheel absorbs a fair amount of energy, mine was crushed before I went over the bonnet of car pulling out of pub

Fortunately I haven't. The crumple zone suggestion was in response to the supposed potential harm caused by bicycles to other parties. Did the buckling of your front wheel reduce damage to the car or prevent injury to its occupants?

I disagree that speed limits are necessary for regular bicycles, speed is so rarely a factor in an incident. Modified e-bikes are a real issue, but they're already illegal anyway.

 

[jpaul]

I disagree that speed limits are necessary for regular bicycles, speed is so rarely a factor in an incident.

the cyclist collision with pensioner that precipitated discussion was >20mph speed ?
A speeding cyclist involved in a fatal collision with a pensioner could not be prosecuted because speed limits do not apply to bicycles, a court heard.
e:

Did the buckling of your front wheel reduce damage to the car or prevent injury to its occupants?

reduced damage to me - I don't think car was at risk -
that was a steel 531 frame, carbon frames have more risk of shattering and embedding shards in you

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

Ever played rugby? Humans are not that squishy lol. People break skulls, necks and spines colliding with eachother even at a moderate running pace. There really is not much give before you hit muscle and bone. Add some metal bars in to the mix...

In London more people get injured by cyclists than cars. Most cyclists that get killed are squished by lorries while trying to undertake (which is why we now see warning stickers on the backs of lorries).

In London, more people injured by cyclists? Really?

This would seem to suggest otherwise:

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/casualties-in-greater-london-2022.pdf

Where's your data?

 

[Brun]

the cyclist collision with pensioner that precipitated discussion was >20mph speed ?
A speeding cyclist involved in a fatal collision with a pensioner could not be prosecuted because speed limits do not apply to bicycles, a court heard.

I did say speed was *rarely* a factor. One incident doesn't do much to suggest otherwise.

 

[koolpc]

I had a letter last week claiming i did 29 in a 20 street. They just gave me a warning this time. I reckon it will soon revert back to a 30 mph street though.

 

[UberTiger]

I hate this new 20MPH craze so god damn much. It's dangerously slow. I spent more time looking at my ******* speedometer than I do at the road.

I can't even set my cruise control to 20MPH as neither of the cars I drive will even allow you to enable it until at least 24mph.

I freaking hate this new blanket adoption. It should be reserved for super high risk areas like school zones etc.

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

I hate this new 20MPH craze so god damn much. It's dangerously slow. I spent more time looking at my ******* speedometer than I do at the road.

I can't even set my cruise control to 20MPH as neither of the cars I drive will even allow you to enable it until at least 24mph.

I freaking hate this new blanket adoption. It should be reserved for super high risk areas like school zones etc.

Are you calling into question your own ability to maintain a consistent speed in a car?
If that’s the case, it wouldn’t matter if the 20mph limits were near schools, as you’re suggesting an inability to not maintain safe road awareness of what’s going on around you, which would be particularly dangerous near a school.

 

[Bear]

In London, more people injured by cyclists? Really?

This would seem to suggest otherwise:

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/casualties-in-greater-london-2022.pdf

Where's your data?

He doesnt have any, he just makes stuff up constantly. In the words of Warren G "Talks so much **** he got halitosis"

 

[Rroff]

Are you calling into question your own ability to maintain a consistent speed in a car?
If that’s the case, it wouldn’t matter if the 20mph limits were near schools, as you’re suggesting an inability to not maintain safe road awareness of what’s going on around you, which would be particularly dangerous near a school.

I've not tried it in an EV, but there is a big difference in anything I drive between how much attention you need to pay to your speed to maintain 20 than 30 and it is less of an issue in small areas of a 20 than over longer distances. A lot of vehicles don't seem to have been designed around 20 limits especially the bigger capacity, automatic transmission vehicles I tend to be driving and some you can't even set the speed limiter that low. While some of it might be muscle memory from being so used to 30 limits in comparison it definitely isn't just that. No matter the skill or attention of the driver.

My pickup and anything CVT has a big difference in accelerator pedal granularity around 20MPH compared to 30 with especially the CVT having a bit of rubber bandy delayed power delivery at around those speeds so you end up having to constantly come on and off the pedal, relatively speaking, compared to adhering to higher limits.

 

[Nasher]

You do get quite an on/off feel with the throttle on many cars at 20 if it has to be in 2nd gear. It can be awkward to hold it there as it will want to accelerate especially turbos.

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

I've not tried it in an EV, but there is a big difference in anything I drive between how much attention you need to pay to your speed to maintain 20 than 30 and it is less of an issue in small areas of a 20 than over longer distances. A lot of vehicles don't seem to have been designed around 20 limits especially the bigger capacity, automatic transmission vehicles I tend to be driving and some you can't even set the speed limiter that low. While some of it might be muscle memory from being so used to 30 limits in comparison it definitely isn't just that. No matter the skill or attention of the driver.

My pickup and anything CVT has a big difference in accelerator pedal granularity around 20MPH compared to 30 with especially the CVT having a bit of rubber bandy delayed power delivery at around those speeds so you end up having to constantly come on and off the pedal, relatively speaking, compared to adhering to higher limits.

That doesn’t really answer the question.
What do you do in an area that “you” feel appropriate to drive at 20mph, eg. Near a school or a very busy shopping area?
If you can’t control your vehicle elsewhere, does anything change, or are you an accident waiting to happen?

 

[Rroff]

That doesn’t really answer the question.
What do you do in an area that “you” feel appropriate to drive at 20mph, eg. Near a school or a very busy shopping area?
If you can’t control your vehicle elsewhere, does anything change, or are you an accident waiting to happen?

Accusations of people can't control their vehicle seem more hyperbolic here than reality. A short stretch where a 20 limit is intended to highlight a specific danger is a very different situation to extended areas of 20 where you are going to be adjusting your speed more frequently.