20mph residential speed limit (replacing 30mph)

[Mr_Sukebe]

Accusations of people can't control their vehicle seem more hyperbolic here than reality….

On this page we have comments of:
- “very difficult to maintain 20mph” and
- “i spend too much time looking at my speedo”, ie. NOT what is going on around the driven vehicle

Can’t say they inspire confidence.

If it’s “hyperbolic”, then I assume there’s no genuine issue and that a 20mph limit is fine.
If those issues highlighted are true, it ain’t good.

After all, if I regularly drove past your house whilst looking at say my phone (ie not the road) wouldn’t you care?

 

[Rroff]

On this page we have comments of:
- “very difficult to maintain 20mph” and
- “i spend too much time looking at my speedo”, ie. NOT what is going on around the driven vehicle

Can’t say they inspire confidence.

If it’s “hyperbolic”, then I assume there’s no genuine issue and that a 20mph limit is fine.
If those issues highlighted are true, it ain’t good.

After all, if I regularly drove past your house whilst looking at say my phone (ie not the road) wouldn’t you care?

I'd say your spin on it is hyperbolic, these comments are relative to other limits such as 30.

 

[UberTiger]

Are you calling into question your own ability to maintain a consistent speed in a car?

At 20mph, yes. Especially considering nearly every road for miles around me is now 20mph. The tiniest amount of fluctuation it takes to go from 20 to 25mph is so minuscule at those low speeds.

I try to be incredibly aware when driving, and to ensure I'm hitting 20mph over long distances I do find myself checking the speedo magnitudes more often than at any other speed limit. This makes me far less aware of what's actually going on in the road, or being able to scan for potential upcoming dangers, because I'm too concerned about accidentally going a couple of mph over the speed limit and getting a ticket. Which at that low speed, a couple of mph difference is a much larger percentage of the overall speed than at any other higher speed.

A school zone is short. It's easy to drop your speed, cruise for a bit, and adjust when past the school. It's also easier to not feel pressure from anyone up your ass.
I just drove back from the supermarket this evening, maybe 2miles. I had a guy right up my ass about half of the journey because I was sticking to the new 20mph speed limit on a major artery London road that just just changed from 30mph. The guy ended up performing a very dangerous overtaking maneuverer and gunning it past me.

In a lot of places these 20mph limits are downright stupid.

 

[UberTiger]

Are you calling into question your own ability to maintain a consistent speed in a car?
If that’s the case, it wouldn’t matter if the 20mph limits were near schools, as you’re suggesting an inability to not maintain safe road awareness of what’s going on around you, which would be particularly dangerous near a school.

I just checked google maps. I now have to drive 5.5 miles at 20mph in order to get from where I live to the motorway. There isn't a single point where the speed fluctuates anymore until a short distance before the onramp. The entire route used to be 30mph and they've reduced the limit by a 1/3. It's bonkers.

I challenge anyone to drive 5.5 miles, with cameras everywhere and actually manage to maintain 20mph without looking at their speedometer considerably more than at a higher speed. All that speedo monitoring takes your eyes away from the road, which makes these stretches of road far more dangerous IMO.

Even 25mph would be magnitudes better. At least then I could set cruise control and safely look out the bloody windscreen without distraction.

 

[hyperseven]

I just checked google maps. I now have to drive 5.5 miles at 20mph in order to get from where I live to the motorway. There isn't a single point where the speed fluctuates anymore until a short distance before the onramp. The entire route used to be 30mph and they've reduced the limit by a 1/3. It's bonkers.

I challenge anyone to drive 5.5 miles, with cameras everywhere and actually manage to maintain 20mph without looking at their speedometer considerably more than at a higher speed. All that speedo monitoring takes your eyes away from the road, which makes these stretches of road far more dangerous IMO.

Even 25mph would be magnitudes better. At least then I could set cruise control and safely look out the bloody windscreen without distraction.

set the speed limiter to 20mph, done.

 

[UberTiger]

set the speed limiter to 20mph, done.

As I mentioned in my first post, none of the cars I tested will set cruise control below 24mph. Every car I've ever driven has had a lower limit on what you can enable this feature at, especially older ones and probably all combustion engine cars. Maybe to do with the gear ratios as such low speeds, I'm not sure.

Electric cars may be different.

 

[UberTiger]

I just noticed you said speed limiter, and not cruise control. That's actually a different feature and one I'm not a fan of as it's more dangerous than cruise control.

I only encountered a speed limiter functionality for the first time this year on a 2019 car I drove that didn't have cruise control. It's a inferior feature compared to cruise control because it removes your ability to immediately accelerate out of a potentially dangerous situation. You would first have to cancel the setting before you can accelerate again.

With cruise control you have complete control to override the system and either brake or accelerate in an instant using only the pedals, which makes it a much safer system.

 

[Brun]

Why is it that people can apparently drive at 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 mph instinctively, but 20 mph is impossible without either constantly staring at the speedometer or some sort of technological intervention?

It's like admitting they'd have trouble passing a driving test.

 

[UberTiger]

Why is it that people can apparently drive at 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 mph instinctively, but 20 mph is impossible without either constantly staring at the speedometer or some sort of technological intervention?

Partly to due with the fact that people have been driving at 30-70 mph consistently for decades, with only 20mph for very short periods of time in high risk areas.

Partly because 20mph is so slow in comparison to all those other speed ranges you listed that it feels massively different in comparison to any of those other speeds.
Vehicles are so well built, and the driving experience and controls are so smooth, it means there's so much less concentration needed to take in the surroundings at 20mph it's actually distractingly slow for extended periods of time.

It may sound counterintuitive, but it's a real thing. It's why we've had a range of 30-70 for decades. To ensure speeds for the roads are appropriate. And 20mph just isn't appropriate for so many of the current zones that are being converted.

Additionally because it's more difficult to maintain a low speed within x percentage of that speed because every single mph difference is massively percentage difference of that speed compared to all those other speeds you listed.

The looking at the speedometer wouldn't actually be as much of an issue if it wasn't for the constant barrage of cameras to penalise us if we fluctuate a small amount. There's such a thing in motoring as going with the flow and driving appropriately to the rest of the traffic. You will find in these 20mph zones though, the vast majority of the traffic will easily creep to 25 +-3mph. This, combined with the camera make the speedo checking necessary.

Honestly, all these people harping on about 20mph is fine have only ever driven through school zones or only have a single street near them converted. Anyone with decades of varied driving experience will understand that the transition to these extended multi mile long 20mph zones is not based on the science of driving and is just reactionary and political.

 

[UberTiger]

The thing a lot of people forget is, that if these roads were still 30mph, that is the limit. The vehicles should be driving about 28mph +- 2mph in these zones. Those speeds are plenty safe.

I'd be happier if they enforced the 30mph limit much more strictly and issued tickets at 31mph. Then the IRL average speed on roads would end up being a consistent 25mph as drivers ensure they're driving safely below 30, you know, the limit

At 20mph you have people driving as slow at 16-19mph to stay below the limit, as a good driver should. But that just annoys a lot of other drivers. That results in unsafe overtaking like I experienced today. It's just bad, especially once you put it on these main artery roads.

 

[Rroff]

Why is it that people can apparently drive at 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 mph instinctively, but 20 mph is impossible without either constantly staring at the speedometer or some sort of technological intervention?

It's like admitting they'd have trouble passing a driving test.

People are being slightly hyperbolic and it is relative to other limits and partly due to muscle memory but many vehicles don't seem to have been design optimised around driving extended periods to 20MPH limits and not just safety but also in respect to fuel economy and emissions, which in some cases can even be twice as bad if you are doing 16-19MPH a lot compared to around 30.

I drive several vehicles with a CVT transmission which have simulated gear changes because apparently people hate it without, the first "power plateau" is around 30MPH (I suspect not by accident) so you know when you've arrived and gives you good pedal granularity around 30 but not 20, also you have the rubber band power delay of CVT which makes adjusting your speed to 20 much harder.

Something people may be missing is that with automatics, including CVT, you can engage manual ranges or sports mode to hold in gear longer at low speeds making driving to 20s much easier than in normal driving mode - but then that defeats some of the purpose of driving an automatic.

Some of it might be addressable via a software update, I'm not sure how much is mechanical and how much is optimised in software - manufacturers generally have to design their cars to work optimally over a broad range of conditions and laws worldwide.

 

[robj20]

I just noticed you said speed limiter, and not cruise control. That's actually a different feature and one I'm not a fan of as it's more dangerous than cruise control.

I only encountered a speed limiter functionality for the first time this year on a 2019 car I drove that didn't have cruise control. It's a inferior feature compared to cruise control because it removes your ability to immediately accelerate out of a potentially dangerous situation. You would first have to cancel the setting before you can accelerate again.

With cruise control you have complete control to override the system and either brake or accelerate in an instant using only the pedals, which makes it a much safer system.

No you wouldn't you just have to put your foot down more.
Limiter is so handy, barely turn mine off it's on the majority of the time.

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

More attempted “group think”.
No, I won’t condone breaking the speed limit, regardless of what it is.

All you’re doing is saying “I don’t want to play by the rules.
Where do you want to stop, because once you stop ignoring some, you’re on a slippery slope.
The implications are simple, the roads turn into anarchy.
Think I’m taking BS, just look at our worsening driving standards over the last 3 decades.

It’s only getting worse and will continue to until people start setting a “good example” of how to drive both legally and politely.

If you don’t like it, I don’t care, as I’m not going to be the one potentially facing speeding fines and an eventual need to retake your driving test.
From the comments here, many are saying that they’re incapable of consistently keeping to the speed limits, so you’re rather out of luck!

 

[G J]

More attempted “group think”.
No, I won’t condone breaking the speed limit, regardless of what it is.

Where do you want to stop, because once you stop ignoring some, you’re on a slippery slope.
The implications are simple, the roads turn into anarchy.
Think I’m taking BS, just look at our worsening driving standards over the last 3 decades.

It’s only getting worse and will continue to until people start setting a “good example” of how to drive both legally and politely.

Having an issue with the 20mph limit zones does not mean people dont want to play by the rules and setting a good example for oneself is great and in general one cant control what others do so the people who dont give a **** will only care when they crash/caught and fined. To get caught and fined means the police have to enforce it and people know the police pretty much dont as they only enforce it in the same select locations, this drives the feeling police dont really care about speeding but generating £££.

Driving legally and politely in a 20mph zone many times increasses the danger to myself and other road users as we get tailgated, light flashed, horned, forced to pull over to let them by, dangerous/illegal overtaking etc.

A road near me has had crashes and deaths over the years and people have been campaigning for cameras or the police do something. They change the limit from a national to a 60, its now a 50mph limit and surprise without no enforcement accidents still happen. The goverment/council have had more than enough time to do something if saving lives and the environment was such a concern as I'm sure this is one road of many others but look everybody 20MPH zones...

If you don’t like it, I don’t care, as I’m not going to be the one potentially facing speeding fines and an eventual need to retake your driving test.
From the comments here, many are saying that they’re incapable of consistently keeping to the speed limits, so you’re rather out of luck!

Having trouble does not mean incapable as there's a difference between someone concentrating more than normal in a 20mph maybe tipping over the 20mph limit a little every now and again and someone completely ignoring it and just doing 30mph as they disagree with 20mph zones or just dont give a ****.

Do you actually live where these 20mph zones are common?

 

[Alibaba99]

Why is it that people can apparently drive at 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 mph instinctively, but 20 mph is impossible without either constantly staring at the speedometer or some sort of technological intervention?

It's like admitting they'd have trouble passing a driving test.

I've spent 30+ years driving in 30 limits, you don't unlearn the visual and audible cues overnight. Plus plenty of the roads just over the bridge from me still have 30 limits.

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

I live in south west London, and our area is festooned with LTNs

 

[Simon]

As I mentioned in my first post, none of the cars I tested will set cruise control below 24mph. Every car I've ever driven has had a lower limit on what you can enable this feature at, especially older ones and probably all combustion engine cars. Maybe to do with the gear ratios as such low speeds, I'm not sure.

Electric cars may be different.

My BMW will do 20mph as the min

 

[Rroff]

Most cars have 24-25MPH or so lowest for cruise control but can be as low as 20 for the speed limiter, though some won't let you set the limiter below somewhere between 20 and 28MPH depending on vehicle. That is assuming the vehicle has those features. Personally I find it too much faff to use for lower limits especially as I'm driving different vehicles regularly with rarely a common implementation of the cruise/speed limiter controls.

 

[Simon]

Just hit set at 20. Easy

Cruise rather than speed limiter

 

[Rroff]

Just hit set at 20. Easy

Cruise rather than speed limiter

Eh? As above most vehicles I drive have a minimum speed of 25 MPH to set cruise control, drop out of cruise control if the speed drops below 21 MPH (18 for the Tiguan IIRC) but also none actually have a simple press set done, most it is at least 2 button presses and depending on what I drive some set is pressing a 2 way control downwards, others a 4 way control which may be up or down or pressing it in, etc. so trying to remember what does what is just too much faff.

EDIT: Actually some of the vans it is a simple lever press IIRC but again different implementation so not muscle memory when not driving the same vehicle regularly.