Poll: Abortion, Roe v. Wade

[Harlequin]

The NHS say other wise.

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists is where i got the information :

Information about abortion care | RCOG

This information is for you if you are considering having an abortion. It may also be helpful if you are a partner, relative or friend of someone who in this situation.

www.rcog.org.uk

They advise the NHS (its one of their jobs after all).

 

[Haggisman]

The NHS say other wise.

We both know that they don't.

 

[Twinz]

If that's genuinely what you believe, then I'm not sure why you can't see that sometimes the situation dictates that the most responsible option is not to have that child.

As @Irish_Tom has said, there's a difference between a flippant "meh, I don't fancy having a baby today" and a carefully considered "if I have a baby right now it will not only literally ruin my life and the father's, but the child will have such poor quality of life that it wouldn't be fair to put it through that if I don't have to". In fact, I'd almost go so far as to suggest that in many cases the mother DOES "want" to have the baby, but realises that in reality, doing so would be a terrible idea.

Have you forgoten about adoption or do you think death is preferable to being adopted?

 

[deuse]

We both know that they don't.

Well you don't

"
Most women will not experience any problems, but there is a small risk of complications, such as:

• infection of the womb (uterus)
• some of the pregnancy remaining in the womb
• excessive bleeding
• damage to the womb or entrance of the womb (cervix)

If complications do occur, you may need further treatment, including surgery."

"There's a very small risk to your fertility and future pregnancies if you develop a womb infection that is not treated quickly. The infection could spread to your fallopian tubes and ovaries "

 

[Harlequin]

Well you don't

"
Most women will not experience any problems, but there is a small risk of complications, such as:

• infection of the womb (uterus)
• some of the pregnancy remaining in the womb
• excessive bleeding
• damage to the womb or entrance of the womb (cervix)

If complications do occur, you may need further treatment, including surgery."

"There's a very small risk to your fertility and future pregnancies if you develop a womb infection that is not treated quickly. The infection could spread to your fallopian tubes and ovaries "

Its good practise to cite everything;

Complications of an abortion

Find out about possible complications of having an abortion.

www.nhs.uk

PID can develop at anytime.

 

[deuse]

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists is where i got the information :

Information about abortion care | RCOG

This information is for you if you are considering having an abortion. It may also be helpful if you are a partner, relative or friend of someone who in this situation.

www.rcog.org.uk

They advise the NHS (its one of their jobs after all).

"
Having an abortion will not usually affect your chances of becoming pregnant and having normal pregnancies in the future.

But there's a very small risk to your fertility and future pregnancies if you develop a womb infection during the procedure that's not treated promptly.

The infection could spread to your fallopian tubes and ovaries, known as pelvic inflammatory disease (PID).

PID can increase your risk of infertility or an ectopic pregnancy, where an egg implants itself outside the womb."

Complications of an abortion

Find out about possible complications of having an abortion.

www.nhs.uk

Wonder if the women even bother to find out how much pain the foetus is in when being killed?

 

[Haggisman]

Have you forgoten about adoption or do you think death is preferable to being adopted?

Never existing != dead

There's no point in discussing it with you if you're going to insist on starting from a fallacious position.

Well you don't

"
Most women will not experience any problems, but there is a small risk of complications, such as:

• infection of the womb (uterus)
• some of the pregnancy remaining in the womb
• excessive bleeding
• damage to the womb or entrance of the womb (cervix)

If complications do occur, you may need further treatment, including surgery."

"There's a very small risk to your fertility and future pregnancies if you develop a womb infection that is not treated quickly. The infection could spread to your fallopian tubes and ovaries "

Fertility problems possibly caused by an infection. But only if not treated quickly. And of which there is a very small risk.

While I'm sure you will try to argue that the infection is caused by the procedure, there are still some significant "ifs" and "buts" to overlook!

 

[deuse]

Never existing != dead

There's no point in discussing it with you if you're going to insist on starting from a fallacious position.



Fertility problems possibly caused by an infection. But only if not treated quickly. And of which there is a very small risk.

While I'm sure you will try to argue that the infection is caused by the procedure, there are still some significant "ifs" and "buts" to overlook!

I already posted that.
Please try to keep up

Maybe they should hook up a microphone to the human so they can hear it in pain as they kill him\her.

 

[Harlequin]

I already posted that.
Please try to keep up

Maybe they should hook up a microphone to the human so they can hear it in pain as they kill him\her.

Best stop eating plants as well then ....

A Group of Scientists Suggest that Plants Feel Pain

According to researchers from Tel Aviv University, plants can feel pain and they send out ultrasonic sounds when they experience environmental stress

www.sciencetimes.com

However what you`re arguing is from an Ethics view point (and that depends on which branch of Ethics you aspire to - if it was Benthem, then sure abort all those who wont make it anyway), and is ofc the difference in society between European liberalism and US conservatism (ideologies, not political parties) and there understanding between the 2 continents.... yes theres a gulf of difference ofc. Anyway , normal service shall resume.

 

[deuse]

Best stop eating plants as well then ....

A Group of Scientists Suggest that Plants Feel Pain

According to researchers from Tel Aviv University, plants can feel pain and they send out ultrasonic sounds when they experience environmental stress

www.sciencetimes.com

However what you`re arguing is from an Ethics view point (and that depends on which branch of Ethics you aspire to - if it was Benthem, then sure abort all those who wont make it anyway), and is ofc the difference in society between European liberalism and US conservatism (ideologies, not political parties) and there understanding between the 2 continents.... yes theres a gulf of difference ofc. Anyway , normal service shall resume.

So you agree they feel pain and you don't care...got it

Glad there is a law coming out in the US to tell people about it.

 

[Junglist]

I do sometimes feel like some (emphasis on some) men are so against abortions because it's something women have full control over

 

[Harlequin]

So you agree they feel pain and you don't care...got it

Glad there is a law coming out in the US to tell people about it.

NO. You assumed that completely as at no point, anywhere, have i stated what I believe. I expect your apology.

 

[Haggisman]

I already posted that.
Please try to keep up

Maybe they should hook up a microphone to the human so they can hear it in pain as they kill him\her.

I've already mentioned, I see anyone who is against abortion as wanting on some level to inflict pain and suffering on other people. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[dlockers]

Have you forgoten about adoption or do you think death is preferable to being adopted?

Can't kill something that isn't alive in a sentient way.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

I can't help if you don't understand the US law.

That case was a supreme court case. Not your local one.
But you knew that as you read it?(Maybe not)

"federal law, anyone who "with the intent of influencing any judge, juror, witness, or court officer, in the discharge of his duty, pickets or parades in or near a building housing a court of the United States or in or near a building or residence occupied or used by such judge, juror, witness, or court officer" could be fined or imprisoned."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1507 "18 U.S. Code § 1507 - Picketing or parading"

I know that from living there....and please stop trying to be an american. You wouldn't last a day

And these peaceful protesters are threatening to kill people via letters.

So why didn't you just quote the federal law like I asked in the first place rather than what would appear to be a race based use of a STATE law by Louisiana in 1964 in a civil rights movement case that the SC threw out us unconstitutional?

Cox was charged with four offenses under Louisiana law: criminal conspiracy, disturbing the peace, obstructing public passages, and picketing before a courthouse. He was acquitted of criminal conspiracy but convicted of the other three offenses. In accordance with Louisiana procedure, the Louisiana Supreme Court reviewed his "disturbing the peace" and "obstructing public passages" convictions on certiorari, and the "courthouse picketing" conviction on appeal, and the court affirmed all three convictions. Cox appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court on the ground that all three statutes were unconstitutionally vague. This case (No. 24) addresses the "disturbing the peace" and "obstructing public passages" statutes, while the second case (No. 49) addresses the "courthouse picketing" statute.

So finally you gave me the federal law. I very much doubt any peaceful protesters will be arrested using it if things remain peaceful. The United States v. Grace, 461 U.S. 171 case might offer them some protection https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/461/171/

And again I don't agree with protesting at any judges house and I don't want to be American thanks, your country is ****** and teetering towards some very bad outcomes.

 

[Twinz]

Never existing != dead

There's no point in discussing it with you if you're going to insist on starting from a fallacious position.

I think you are avoiding the question so I will rephrase using your premise:

Do you think being adopted is a worse fate than "not existing"?

I submit that you were providing a false choice by ignoring adoption.

 

[Haggisman]

I think you are avoiding the question so I will rephrase using your supposition:

Do you think being adopted is a worse fate than "not existing"?

Better/worse for who?

Society? Impossible to tell, the child could grow up to cure cancer or become the next Hitler, who knows.

For the individual in question, it depends who they get adopted by, and random chance, but if they exist, there is a greater than 0 possibility they will have a **** life full of suffering. If they never exist, then that possibility is 0. There's also always going to be the question of "why did my parents not want me?", which let's face it, isn't exactly going to be conducive to a healthy mind.

In addition, the original position is one of not existing, so looking it from both that perspective and the one of minimising unnecessary suffering, it makes sense to return to the original position of non-existence. I think most people's problem with this is an (understandable) inability to visualise "never having existed" and so conflating it with death. Me not having a sister doesn't mean I have a dead sister.

What about for the mother? While an abortion is not a trivial matter, and can have long lasting effects, at least it's "over with", whereas with adoption there's always going to be a living reminder. Ultimately this should be a decision up to her and her alone (with appropriate neutral medical advice and support of family and friends of course).

 

[Irish_Tom]

I think you are avoiding the question so I will rephrase using your premise:

Do you think being adopted is a worse fate than "not existing"?

I submit that you were providing a false choice by ignoring adoption.

In some circumstances, absolutely!

*Edit* this line of reasoning also raises a very pertinent question — do you put the rights of the zygote/blastocyst/embryo/fetus above those of the mother?

Unless I've missed it, you still haven't told us how you voted in the poll.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

In the end it comes down to do we (the government) have the right to take control of a women's body for 9 months. IMO we do not. Abortion isn't great and there should be as few as possible through easy access to contraception and sex education but they should be available, cheap, safe, offer mental health support and be free of groups attempting to guilt the women into not having one.

 

[ianh]

I'm neither fully one nor the other and my stance could be seen as hypocritical by both sides I suppose.

I'm Pro-Life except for cases of rape/incest or medical necessity for the mothers life. For me I would like to see each of those individual cases dealt with via a court case to ensure that the facts are correct before a "permit" would be allowed, with the only exemption from that being a medical emergency (mothers going to die immediately without action - ectopic pregnancy etc) in which case the Doctor performing the abortion would have to justify their actions to the court afterwards which should be simple enough to do to ensure no "backroom abortions" are being carried out.

I personally think using abortion as a retro-active contraceptive due to an unwanted pregnancy, which seems to be the most common use currently, is appalling and I can't believe we've allowed the termination of life to be so glibly done in those types of cases. My friends wife has been through a medical-reason abortion (unsurvivable fetus due to genetic defect) so I've seen how badly it can effect someone, I just find it hard watching the current "progressive" types celebrating death this much like it means nothing to them.