Poll: Abortion, Roe v. Wade

[Twinz]

In some circumstances, absolutely!

*Edit* this line of reasoning also raises a very pertinent question — do you put the rights of the zygote/blastocyst/embryo/fetus above those of the mother?

Unless I've missed it, you still haven't told us how you voted in the poll.

"Some circumstances" you say? In "some circumstances" a parent (or parents) who think they have no chance of raising a happy child turn out to be wrong and end up with a child or children that are very much happy to be alive.

Adopted children have a better chance of living a happy life than aborted children. The chance of a terrible life is there too, but I don't think adoption makes for particularly bad odds itself.

Again, the choice is not between a terrible life with a parent that doesn't think they are ready to have a child ...or abortion. This is a false choice.

I have posited that parental responsibility begins before birth and is not contingent upon "want". Parents' "rights" should be weighed against their responsibilities to the children they create. My son and daughter-in-law are expecting. They seem to feel responsible for the well-being of the child already. My daughter-in-law has "rights" but she is already weighing them against her responsibilities to the child.

As for the poll, it doesn't have an option that fits me. I think brain activity may be the marker we should use for when society protects the child. Everything that makes us "us" is literally in our head. I think once there is no brain activity, there is no us, so the same could be said prior to brain activity starting. I realize that there are different levels of activity, and those levels have different implications, but activity vs no activity is a marker that's measurable and verifiable.

Just to reiterate. I don't think aborting a 20-week fetus is the same as murdering a random person walking down the street, but I also don't think that fetus is just a random growth to be discarded like a mole or a wart. These two positions are examples of each side trying to overplay their hand.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

I'm neither fully one nor the other and my stance could be seen as hypocritical by both sides I suppose.

I'm Pro-Life except for cases of rape/incest or medical necessity for the mothers life. For me I would like to see each of those individual cases dealt with via a court case to ensure that the facts are correct before a "permit" would be allowed, with the only exemption from that being a medical emergency (mothers going to die immediately without action - ectopic pregnancy etc) in which case the Doctor performing the abortion would have to justify their actions to the court afterwards which should be simple enough to do to ensure no "backroom abortions" are being carried out.

I personally think using abortion as a retro-active contraceptive due to an unwanted pregnancy, which seems to be the most common use currently, is appalling and I can't believe we've allowed the termination of life to be so glibly done in those types of cases. My friends wife has been through a medical-reason abortion (unsurvivable fetus due to genetic defect) so I've seen how badly it can effect someone, I just find it hard watching the current "progressive" types celebrating death this much like it means nothing to them.

I pretty much echo this, the older I get the more Conservative I seem to become, never really cared about this issue 10+ years ago but seeing abortion as something to celebrate just shows how far the morality of society is falling.

 

[Twinz]

In the end it comes down to do we (the government) have the right to take control of a women's body for 9 months. IMO we do not. Abortion isn't great and there should be as few as possible through easy access to contraception and sex education but they should be available, cheap, safe, offer mental health support and be free of groups attempting to guilt the women into not having one.

9 months? I think society already "takes control" for some of those months. (Viability) Do you think a woman 8.5 months pregnant has the right to end her child? Do you think society has no responsibility to the child at that point?

 

[ubersonic]

• Fully pro-life, including Embryo
• Pro-life but exceptions for morning after pill and IUDs
• Pro-choice but up until heartbeat limit of 6-weeks
• Pro-choice up to pre-viability limit (based on local legislation)
• Fully pro-choice until birth

The big problem with this entire issue is that it is an undisputable fact that at some point life begins but nobody can actually say when, only offer up opinions.

Everyone can agree that once a collection of cells definitively becomes a human being it has a right to life but before then a woman's choice is paramount, but everyone seems to have a different idea of when that point is and nobody can actually say when that happens only put forward ideas/guidelines about it. This is one of the reasons Roe vs Wade has needed revisiting for a long time, because deep down even people who support it want it double checking to help convince themselves they're right as it's such a big/important issue.

Because it's such a big/important issue there isn't really a "correct" answer in the poll just varying degrees of wrong/bad ones:

Fully pro-life, including Embryo - obviously wrong as while it's a "potential" human being it's barely more of a potential human being than the egg/sperm were individually (I.E why not simply extend it to sperm and arrest male teenagers for genocide).

Pro-life but exceptions for morning-after pill and IUDs - Morning after pills aren't abortive (this tripped up Mogg in a recent interview) and IUDs are contraception, some religious folks do claim that contraception = murder but in those cases it's pretty safe to simply disregard their opinions of a scientific matter on grounds of competency.

Pro-choice but up until heartbeat limit of 6-weeks - The best choice on the list, but still nowhere near being the "correct" answer as brain function begins before unaided heartbeat and we can't measure that accurately in a foetus yet meaning this will result in living beings dying.

Pro-choice up to pre-viability limit (based on local legislation) - One thing this has all succeeded in proving is that local and even state legislators are not qualified nor competent to decide this as their answers swing wildly base don personal beliefs.

Fully pro-choice until birth - obviously wrong, but the opposite end of the scale (I.E if this were the correct answer then every premature or C-section baby ever born would have dead).

 

[Irish_Tom]

"Some circumstances" you say? In "some circumstances" a parent (or parents) who think they have no chance of raising a happy child turn out to be wrong and end up with a child or children that are very much happy to be alive.

Adopted children have a better chance of living a happy life than aborted children. The chance of a terrible life is there too, but I don't think adoption makes for particularly bad odds itself.

Again, the choice is not between a terrible life with a parent that doesn't think they are ready to have a child ...or abortion. This is a false choice.

No one is saying it's binary, that's a straw man. Adoption might be the right choice for certain people in certain circumstances. But that's exactly the point — it should be a choice, one the mother aught to be best placed to make.

I have posited that parental responsibility begins before birth and is not contingent upon "want". Parents' "rights" should be weighed against their responsibilities to the children they create. My son and daughter-in-law are expecting. They seem to feel responsible for the well-being of the child already. My daughter-in-law has "rights" but she is already weighing them against her responsibilities to the child.

And that is right for them, in their circumstances. My wife and I wanted a child and did everything in our power to ensure we gave that child the best possible start in life, even before conception. That was us being responsible parents. But we're fortunate in many ways to be in a position to take that approach. I'm not going to judge someone for taking a different path under different circumstances.

As for the poll, it doesn't have an option that fits me. I think brain activity may be the marker we should use for when society protects the child. Everything that makes us "us" is literally in our head. I think once there is no brain activity, there is no us, so the same could be said prior to brain activity starting. I realize that there are different levels of activity, and those levels have different implications, but activity vs no activity is a marker that's measurable and verifiable.

Thank you for explaining your position.

Just to reiterate. I don't think aborting a 20-week fetus is the same as murdering a random person walking down the street, but I also don't think that fetus is just a random growth to be discarded like a mole or a wart. These two positions are examples of each side trying to overplay their hand.

I can't imagine that anyone making the decision to have an abortion is doing so in the same way as getting a mole or wart removed.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

I'm neither fully one nor the other and my stance could be seen as hypocritical by both sides I suppose.

I'm Pro-Life except for cases of rape/incest or medical necessity for the mothers life. For me I would like to see each of those individual cases dealt with via a court case to ensure that the facts are correct before a "permit" would be allowed, with the only exemption from that being a medical emergency (mothers going to die immediately without action - ectopic pregnancy etc) in which case the Doctor performing the abortion would have to justify their actions to the court afterwards which should be simple enough to do to ensure no "backroom abortions" are being carried out.

I personally think using abortion as a retro-active contraceptive due to an unwanted pregnancy, which seems to be the most common use currently, is appalling and I can't believe we've allowed the termination of life to be so glibly done in those types of cases. My friends wife has been through a medical-reason abortion (unsurvivable fetus due to genetic defect) so I've seen how badly it can effect someone, I just find it hard watching the current "progressive" types celebrating death this much like it means nothing to them.

I pretty much echo this, the older I get the more Conservative I seem to become, never really cared about this issue 10+ years ago but seeing abortion as something to celebrate just shows how far the morality of society is falling.

Who is celebrating having an abortion? A lot of women obviously feel very strongly about THEIR right to choose what happens with THEIR body. Its about as an emotive subject as you can get but I've never seen a women celebrate having an abortion.

9 months? I think society already "takes control" for some of those months. (Viability) Do you think a woman 8.5 months pregnant has the right to end her child? Do you think society has no responsibility to the child at that point?

So a women can't get an abortion if her life is threatened? What if there is a problem with the foetus that means it won't survive outside her body or its heart has stopped, should she be forced to care it to term and go through delivery? None of this is black and white. This is about as personal as it gets and after the viability point is passed there should still be an option under certain circumstances.

To be honest I think men should stay out of this decision. When men can get pregnant then they should get a say in this.

 

[Twinz]

This is about as personal as it gets and after the viability point is passed there should still be an option under certain circumstances.

Isn't it society that decides just what those "certain circumstances" are?

 

[Werewolf]

Isn't it society that decides just what those "certain circumstances" are?

Society generally had, and it was pretty much when either the foetus wasn't viable/had already died, or that the mother was in a medical situation where carrying on would put her life at unreasonable risk.

Something a lot of people who claim to be pro choice gloss over is that pregnancy even when everything is going fairly well can result in something going catastrophically wrong very quickly, and that even someone who absolutely does want a child may have to make the horrible choice between an abortion to save their own live and possibly dying, or an abortion because the foetus is not going to be viable/is already dying.

 

[inflames]

I'm neither fully one nor the other and my stance could be seen as hypocritical by both sides I suppose.

I'm Pro-Life except for cases of rape/incest or medical necessity for the mothers life. For me I would like to see each of those individual cases dealt with via a court case to ensure that the facts are correct before a "permit" would be allowed, with the only exemption from that being a medical emergency (mothers going to die immediately without action - ectopic pregnancy etc) in which case the Doctor performing the abortion would have to justify their actions to the court afterwards which should be simple enough to do to ensure no "backroom abortions" are being carried out.

I personally think using abortion as a retro-active contraceptive due to an unwanted pregnancy, which seems to be the most common use currently, is appalling and I can't believe we've allowed the termination of life to be so glibly done in those types of cases. My friends wife has been through a medical-reason abortion (unsurvivable fetus due to genetic defect) so I've seen how badly it can effect someone, I just find it hard watching the current "progressive" types celebrating death this much like it means nothing to them.

Pretty much echos my opinion on this. Expect the court case but. My thoughts on this subject have changed over the years, I use to say, the choice would be up to the women. But that changed after we had children, one day I got asked by someone, when does it become a life. What really got me thinking. Here in the U.K. I think we have right the balance.
One other thing I would like to add, what about the father in all this. I know a few guys who where absolutely crushed when they found out there partner had abortion, as they wanted to be a dad.

 

[Devilman]

I pretty much echo this, the older I get the more Conservative I seem to become, never really cared about this issue 10+ years ago but seeing abortion as something to celebrate just shows how far the morality of society is falling.

Honestly I think here lies the root of the problem. As people get older, they get more and more out of touch with the society in which they now exist and when confronted by that which they dislike attempt to force their views on others. Either through the use of clearly emotive and antagonistic "looking down their nose" faux moral superiority or via law and legislation.

Consider this... Abortion *should* be celebrated.
How many lives has it saved? How many potential mothers died (along with the baby) due to complications during pregnancy? - Those who are "Pro-Life" so often advocate for the rights of the child, while intentionally attempting to curtail and discriminate against the rights of the mother.

The simple fact that so many who are advocating "pro-life" are totally refusing to acknowledge is that hundreds of thousands of actual lives have been saved via easy access, to clean, safe, reliable abortion(s).

**Deleted quote removed**

By that same measure, should we leave you to listen to the unending screams of would-be mothers dying in agony from an ectopic pregnancy because you believe a cluster of cells that have been dividing for a couple of months have more rights than an actual living human being?

And why the need for such utter hysteria and nonsense such as this?

It's also very interesting to note from the responses in this thread the distinctly different reasons / motivations being given and methodologies of how achieve that. It may be a little simplistic but it really seems to boil down to this...

Those that of the "pro-choice" advocates (in whichever form) have great emphasis on allowing choice (obv), increasing available options and generally wanting to "empower" (I dislike the use of that term, but feel it is appropriate here) Women / The Mother-to-Be to have as many options available to them, while respecting their desire right to have autonomy and control over their own bodies.

Those of the "pro-life" advocates (in whichever form) seem to often display a much more "dictatorial" attitude, seeking to limit options and "control" Women / The Mother-to-Be, denying them the same rights they themselves enjoy, such as body autonomy and ultimately becomes an issue of discrimination.


To those of you who believe that a woman can just "decide" one day to get an abortion and it's no big deal - or as another poster put it "like having a wart removed" I will just say this...

You have no idea the trauma a woman goes through during and after an abortion. Unless you have actually been there, or have been through it yourself, you really are just clueless idiots, your "opinion" is entirely irrelevant.

*Edit* In fact quite honestly I feel like a topic such as this, Any legislation being made in regards to pregnancy / abortion should *only* be voted on by bona-fide "XX-chromosome's". Who are we (as men) to think we should have ANY say at all on this topic, much less dictate legislation and laws surrounding it?

 

[deuse]

Honestly I think here lies the root of the problem. As people get older, they get more and more out of touch with the society in which they now exist and when confronted by that which they dislike attempt to force their views on others. Either through the use of clearly emotive and antagonistic "looking down their nose" faux moral superiority or via law and legislation.

Consider this... Abortion *should* be celebrated.
How many lives has it saved? How many potential mothers died (along with the baby) due to complications during pregnancy? - Those who are "Pro-Life" so often advocate for the rights of the child, while intentionally attempting to curtail and discriminate against the rights of the mother.

The simple fact that so many who are advocating "pro-life" are totally refusing to acknowledge is that hundreds of thousands of actual lives have been saved via easy access, to clean, safe, reliable abortion(s).



By that same measure, should we leave you to listen to the unending screams of would-be mothers dying in agony from an ectopic pregnancy because you believe a cluster of cells that have been dividing for a couple of months have more rights than an actual living human being?

And why the need for such utter hysteria and nonsense such as this?

It's also very interesting to note from the responses in this thread the distinctly different reasons / motivations being given and methodologies of how achieve that. It may be a little simplistic but it really seems to boil down to this...

Those that of the "pro-choice" advocates (in whichever form) have great emphasis on allowing choice (obv), increasing available options and generally wanting to "empower" (I dislike the use of that term, but feel it is appropriate here) Women / The Mother-to-Be to have as many options available to them, while respecting their desire right to have autonomy and control over their own bodies.

Those of the "pro-life" advocates (in whichever form) seem to often display a much more "dictatorial" attitude, seeking to limit options and "control" Women / The Mother-to-Be, denying them the same rights they themselves enjoy, such as body autonomy and ultimately becomes an issue of discrimination.


To those of you who believe that a woman can just "decide" one day to get an abortion and it's no big deal - or as another poster put it "like having a wart removed" I will just say this...

You have no idea the trauma a woman goes through during and after an abortion. Unless you have actually been there, or have been through it yourself, you really are just clueless idiots, your "opinion" is entirely irrelevant.

*Edit* In fact quite honestly I feel like a topic such as this, Any legislation being made in regards to pregnancy / abortion should *only* be voted on by bona-fide "XX-chromosome's". Who are we (as men) to think we should have ANY say at all on this topic, much less dictate legislation and laws surrounding it?

I can not find any data on ectopic pregnancy. Other than it is very rare in the UK.

This year world wide abortions are at 16 million..
There are over 3,000 abortions in the US each day alone. That we know of.

"According to WHO, every year in the world there are an estimated 40-50 million abortions. This corresponds to approximately 125,000 abortions per day."

Abortion Statistics - Worldometer

Live statistics showing how many abortions are being performed in the world this year

www.worldometers.info

 

[deuse]

And again I don't agree with protesting at any judges house and I don't want to be American thanks, your country is ****** and teetering towards some very bad outcomes.

You and your gang post so much in any American thread on this forum.
Anyone would think you was American.

 

[Devilman]

I can not find any data on ectopic pregnancy. Other than it is very rare in the UK.

This year world wide abortions are at 16 million..
There are over 3,000 abortions in the US each day alone. That we know of.

"According to WHO, every year in the world there are an estimated 40-50 million abortions. This corresponds to approximately 125,000 abortions per day."

Abortion Statistics - Worldometer

Live statistics showing how many abortions are being performed in the world this year

www.worldometers.info

Unless statistics also exist for deaths during pregnancy right up until the point it became medically possible to conduct abortion, your statistics do nothing except create a single data point with no reference, all it proves is that "it is". - Also note, ectopic pregnancy is only 1 of many ways pregnant women die or suffer life-changing complications (and sometimes the fetus also) .

It also does not address the issue that the "pro-life" stance solely revolves around the notion that "potential life" has greater rights and / or freedoms than "actual life", which is frankly absurd, no?

 

[deuse]

Unless statistics also exist for deaths during pregnancy right up until the point it became medically possible to conduct abortion, your statistics do nothing except create a single data point with no reference, all it proves is that "it is". - Also note, ectopic pregnancy is only 1 of many ways pregnant women die or suffer life-changing complications (and sometimes the fetus also) .

It also does not address the issue that the "pro-life" stance solely revolves around the notion that "potential life" has greater rights and / or freedoms than "actual life", which is frankly absurd, no?

Why don't you just search.

Maternal mortality

WHO fact sheet on maternal mortality with key facts and providing information on MDG 4, where deaths occur, causes, lack of care and WHO response.

www.who.int

210,000 abortions in the UK

Abortion statistics, England and Wales: 2020

www.gov.uk

Next time you reply. Post some data to back your posts up.
Or are they just feelings?

 

[Irish_Tom]

Unless statistics also exist for deaths during pregnancy right up until the point it became medically possible to conduct abortion, your statistics do nothing except create a single data point with no reference, all it proves is that "it is". - Also note, ectopic pregnancy is only 1 of many ways pregnant women die or suffer life-changing complications (and sometimes the fetus also) .

It also does not address the issue that the "pro-life" stance solely revolves around the notion that "potential life" has greater rights and / or freedoms than "actual life", which is frankly absurd, no?

Especially when so many “pro life” are meant to be “libertarians” — nothing libertarian about forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy against her will.

 

[Devilman]

Why don't you just search.

Maternal mortality

WHO fact sheet on maternal mortality with key facts and providing information on MDG 4, where deaths occur, causes, lack of care and WHO response.

www.who.int

210,000 abortions in the UK

Abortion statistics, England and Wales: 2020

www.gov.uk

Next time you reply. Post some data to back your posts up.
Or are they just feelings?

Because as I quite clearly stated in my earlier post....

Unless statistics also exist for deaths during pregnancy right up until the point it became medically possible to conduct abortion, your statistics do nothing except create a single data point with no reference, all it proves is that "it is". - Also note, ectopic pregnancy is only 1 of many ways pregnant women die or suffer life-changing complications (and sometimes the fetus also) .

It also does not address the issue that the "pro-life" stance solely revolves around the notion that "potential life" has greater rights and / or freedoms than "actual life", which is frankly absurd, no?

I was not aware the UK government had statistics for pregnancy fatalities going back to roman times and beyond... I must get on that right away.

Seriously though, you seem to have missed the point of my earlier post...

Women have been getting pregnant, suffering complications and dying during the process for millenia. Abortion has provided a means for medical science to save countless lives since it's development and will continue to do so for years to come.

Any argument in favor of "potential-life" over "actual-life" is simply untenable.

 

[deuse]

Because as I quite clearly stated in my earlier post....



I was not aware the UK government had statistics for pregnancy fatalities going back to roman times and beyond... I must get on that right away.

Seriously though, you seem to have missed the point of my earlier post...

Women have been getting pregnant, suffering complications and dying during the process for millenia. Abortion has provided a means for medical science to save countless lives since it's development and will continue to do so for years to come.

Any argument in favor of "potential-life" over "actual-life" is simply untenable.

You seam not to be aware of anything till it's pointed out to you.
Then you come back with feelings and unicorns.

The fact is that abortions are reaching record highs world wide.
And the only people gaining from this are the companies that support death.

 

[Allnamestaken]

You are the only one who ever seems to reply with feels Deuse.

 

[Devilman]

You seam not to be aware of anything till it's pointed out to you.
Then you come back with feelings and unicorns.

The fact is that abortions are reaching record highs world wide.
And the only people gaining from this are the companies that support death.

I will say it again, slowly, as it doesn't seem to be getting through.

Women have been getting pregnant, suffering complications and dying during the process for millenia thousands of years. Abortion has provided a means for medical science to save the lives of countless women (actual living, breathing people with jobs, loved ones and friends) since it's development and will continue to do so for years to come.

Since there is no statistical record of how many women have died due to complications with pregnancy over those thousands of years your statistics provide nothing for comparison, all it does is simply provide a fixed point.. something that says "it's currently like this".

Now you are shifting your replies to a theme of "The number of abortions are at an all time high" - something which I neither disputed, nor made any mention of, could it be you're attempting to construct a strawman?

And the only people gaining from this are the companies that support death.

Aaah yes, it would seem that is indeed the case.

However as previously discussed, it is quite clear that the "only people gaining from this are the companies that support death" is both a hysterical and hyperbolic statement to make, considering we have literally been discussing how women (you know, actual living breathing people) have been saved from a slow painful death due to complications in pregnancy by having the availability of a safe medical procedure in clean, sterile conditions and conducted by highly trained professionals?

 

[deuse]

I will say it again, slowly, as it doesn't seem to be getting through.

Women have been getting pregnant, suffering complications and dying during the process for millenia thousands of years. Abortion has provided a means for medical science to save the lives of countless women (actual living, breathing people with jobs, loved ones and friends) since it's development and will continue to do so for years to come.

Since there is no statistical record of how many women have died due to complications with pregnancy over those thousands of years your statistics provide nothing for comparison, all it does is simply provide a fixed point.. something that says "it's currently like this".

Now you are shifting your replies to a theme of "The number of abortions are at an all time high" - something which I neither disputed, nor made any mention of, could it be you're attempting to conduct a strawman?

Aaah yes, it would seem that is indeed the case.

However as previously discussed, it is quite clear that the "only people gaining from this are the companies that support death" is both a hysterical and hyperbolic statement to make, considering we have literally been discussing how women (you know, actual living breathing people) have been saved from a slow painful death due to complications in pregnancy by having the availability of a safe medical procedure in clean, sterile conditions and conducted by highly trained professionals?

Yes I agree that women have been saved. But you never posted data did you? that would be a NO.
Please post the data you have about this.

Planned Parenthood in the US makes $1.6 billion, including approximately $530 million in government funding. https://www.forbes.com/companies/planned-parenthood-federation-of-america/

They have 600 health clinics in the U.S alone. They give foetal tissue to other companies. I hope ALL the women who have abortions know this.
Most likely not. It's all about the money. If it wasn't. Then the company would not be around.