The UK law is in place for all areas of the UK that legalises abortion. The NI administration is devolved as is health. I do not see what else could be done centrally unless people are dispatched to forcibly control the application on the ground. Not a good look, it is for local politicians and practitioners to resolve. As it would be in Scotland, Wales or England.Yes, although I don't see any relevance with the ROI. The point I'm making is that there are areas of the UK that are backward in terms of women's health and I find it disappointing that people can get so animated about other countries when their own country doesn't have it's house in order. It feels very hypocritical.
Just my opinion, and it's more an observation than a criticism of any particular individual.
Poll: Abortion, Roe v. Wade
- Thread starter dowie
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But it depends on if it really is a debilitating condition, or the parents just assume it'll be too much and abort.
For example a baby with Down's Syndrome can be aborted up to birth in the UK. This was even challenged recently.
Down's Syndrome isn't a debilitating condition.
'Down's syndrome abortion law doesn't respect my life'
A woman with Down's syndrome says she will not stand for the legislation she seeks to overturn.
www.bbc.co.uk
I have 2 rare genetic conditions. Thankfully I was born to loving parents. I think when disability gets mentioned during birth it falls back on stereotypes. For many parents, like many people, might not have ever seen or interacted with a disabled person in real life.
I've been brought up through the special school system and seen people a lot more disabled than me. I've lost friends who died either towards the end of secondary school or in to their late teens or early 20's. I fear that some people would have an abortion on the grounds that "well, they aren't going to live beyond 20 so whats the point". When in reality those kids have lived amazing lives.
It's interesting how most of these wokies act liberal, then when it comes to disability they are the main ones wanting to kill (this is based off my experience and reading documents from feminist groups when it comes to abortion).
I'd advocate cheaper birth control in the US, as well as better access to it, so most people don't get to the stage of needing an abortion.
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You were lucky and my respect to your parents BowdonUK, but the sad fact is many disabled babies are born to parents who, through ignorance, lack of money or selfishness fail to correctly care for what are often extremely difficult to raise children. These then can live a life of loneliness and misery as, good as UK care facilities may be in comparison to some third world places, , they are no replacement for loving parents. Hence why I seriously advocate a means, IQ and genetic test before being allowed to give birth, as the UK population spirals beyond its natural and man made resources and available funding.
But it depends on if it really is a debilitating condition, or the parents just assume it'll be too much and abort.
For example a baby with Down's Syndrome can be aborted up to birth in the UK. This was even challenged recently.
Down's Syndrome isn't a debilitating condition.
'Down's syndrome abortion law doesn't respect my life'
A woman with Down's syndrome says she will not stand for the legislation she seeks to overturn.www.bbc.co.uk
I have 2 rare genetic conditions. Thankfully I was born to loving parents. I think when disability gets mentioned during birth it falls back on stereotypes. For many parents, like many people, might not have ever seen or interacted with a disabled person in real life.
I've been brought up through the special school system and seen people a lot more disabled than me. I've lost friends who died either towards the end of secondary school or in to their late teens or early 20's. I fear that some people would have an abortion on the grounds that "well, they aren't going to live beyond 20 so whats the point". When in reality those kids have lived amazing lives.
It's interesting how most of these wokies act liberal, then when it comes to disability they are the main ones wanting to kill (this is based off my experience and reading documents from feminist groups when it comes to abortion).
I'd advocate cheaper birth control in the US, as well as better access to it, so most people don't get to the stage of needing an abortion.
Down's is a massively debilitating condition. It requires heavy and advanced medical intervention throughout the person's life. Without that medical attention lifespan is incredibly limited and quality of life non-existant.
In most instances that person will never attain an intelligence above that of a young child. They will require care of some extent throughout their life. Even if they do end up in the workplace it will be an adapted workplace with special provisions to meet their needs.
It can often be incredibly taxing on the parents to raise a child with Down's, far more so than raising a child without the disorder.
Believe me, I've seen a lot more low IQ people that are supposedly disability free since leaving the special school system than I did when I was in
Life isn't always straight forward. Instead of thinking of these situations like its a disadvantage, think of it as an opportunity to learn about the world you'd never know anything about if it wouldn't have happened.
I know in my own life if I had never had a disability I wouldn't have had to think deeply about certain experiences because it would never have crossed my mind. I'd say if a person hasn't experienced a genuine struggle about something, especially outside of themselves, then they haven't fully lived.
I agree though its not a walk in the park. That it is a life changing experience for both the parents and the child. But I've seen Down's syndrome people have good fufilling lives. I could never kill my flesh and blood. Unless someone was going to be born in a vegetative state that would be the only time I'd consider that decision.
But I'd prefer people to be on birth control, or take the morning after pill, or use condoms... of give themselves 'relief', before getting to the point approaching birth.
I have to say reading some comments of women on the subject online, I don't think I could be with some that have such a blase attitude about abortion.
There is a good point that both you and @Dis86 make about that situation, and though I don't like the opinion I can see where you both are coming from.
I think what annoys me the most is when there is nothing wrong with the kid and its aborted. From what I can gather the difference between the US and UK is that we have free accessable birth control. People here don't even need to see a doctor, just go to the pharmacy. I've known women who are constantly on birth control, or the morning after pill.
The problem in the US is that for the poorest people getting birth control pills are expensive. So they are stuck in a money trap of not being able to take birth control, and they can't afford to travel to another state.
Both Republicans and Democrats seem to avoid talking about the high cost of birth control pills for some reason.
Believe me, I've seen a lot more low IQ people that are supposedly disability free since leaving the special school system than I did when I was in
Life isn't always straight forward. Instead of thinking of these situations like its a disadvantage, think of it as an opportunity to learn about the world you'd never know anything about if it wouldn't have happened.
I know in my own life if I had never had a disability I wouldn't have had to think deeply about certain experiences because it would never have crossed my mind. I'd say if a person hasn't experienced a genuine struggle about something, especially outside of themselves, then they haven't fully lived.
I agree though its not a walk in the park. That it is a life changing experience for both the parents and the child. But I've seen Down's syndrome people have good fufilling lives. I could never kill my flesh and blood. Unless someone was going to be born in a vegetative state that would be the only time I'd consider that decision.
But I'd prefer people to be on birth control, or take the morning after pill, or use condoms... of give themselves 'relief', before getting to the point approaching birth.
I have to say reading some comments of women on the subject online, I don't think I could be with some that have such a blase attitude about abortion.
Definitely agree with you on the first point!
No, life isn't always straight forward but I bet there's not a single parent of a disabled child out there (well, apart from the nutjobs) who don't wish every day that their child never had to suffer through that disability, no matter how minor it may be. That's whether they lead a good, happy life or not. And they definitely can do. As Chris mentioned, one of the biggest factors is the parents and how much care they can deliver that child/adult.
I grew up living a few doors down from a kid with Down's called Colin. One thing I'm actually very proud of when looking back is that none of our friendship group ever did anything than show him care and friendship, even as idiot kids. However I know his life wasn't easy, despite him outwardly seeming very happy. He had to have multiple ops on his ears and yet was still profoundly deaf, he required very strong glasses and I know from talking to his sister that he had issues with breathing. I largely lost touch when we moved away from the area but in passing I think it was mentioned that he died quite young, probably around his early 30s as he was a little older than me.
Agreed, abortions shouldn't really be a form of contraception. It is a massive decision that should not be taken lightly but the option should still be there when required.
Abortion on demand is legal in Northern Ireland up to 12 weeks, in fact in the rest of the UK abortion on demand isn't technically enshrined in law but relies on the fact that mental health exceptions for abortion are interpreted broadly so as to allow for it.
I don't see how it can be a "massive decision" without admitting it's a human life?
Because up to certain points it's not a human life.
Then "up to a certain point" it's not a "massive decision".
Well it is because those cells have the potential to be a human life.
Unfertilized eggs have "potential". There's apperantly more to this than just "potential".
Not alone they don't.
And a pre-viability baby in the womb has no potential on its own either. Without its mother, it has no "potential."
Except it does, because without intervention it will continue to grow within the womb to viability.
The question of unborn viability and criminal offences has been tested (unfortunately) many times. I recall from my criminal law exams it’s around 24 weeks. So it makes some sense for abortion to be legal up to and including 24 weeks.
I am pro choice. America is a ******* crazy place where abortion is illegal but assault rifles are legal and there is no universal right to healthcare or medicine. They’re happy for the child to be born but not for that child to be cared for afterwards. That seems completely incompatible to me.
I am pro choice. America is a ******* crazy place where abortion is illegal but assault rifles are legal and there is no universal right to healthcare or medicine. They’re happy for the child to be born but not for that child to be cared for afterwards. That seems completely incompatible to me.
"Positive rights" vs "negative rights".
The naming scheme had to come from the "positive" rights camp, but still. It's basically the difference between the "right" to make other people give you stuff vs the right to not have other people take your stuff.
The naming scheme had to come from the "positive" rights camp, but still. It's basically the difference between the "right" to make other people give you stuff vs the right to not have other people take your stuff.
Tough one for me.
I care about practically nothing in the world. But this one I did find out that I strangely enough had an opinion on.
The missus fell pregnant about 6 months ago at the age of 38. We decided that we're one and done after she had 4 miscarriages, and that's after she carried our little one to full term when she fell pregnant the first time. We though the 2nd time (and 2nd and last baby) will be just as easy but biology decided otherwise.
Long story short, she said that she wanted to terminate and asked how I felt about it. Couldn't go through with it. Not after seeing the heartbeat at 6 weeks. Turns out, nor could she. Sadly the pregnancy didn't work out and she miscarried again.
Funny really. Always though that it wouldn't be a big deal to me and when confronted with that very choice - massive deal. For both me and her.
I care about practically nothing in the world. But this one I did find out that I strangely enough had an opinion on.
The missus fell pregnant about 6 months ago at the age of 38. We decided that we're one and done after she had 4 miscarriages, and that's after she carried our little one to full term when she fell pregnant the first time. We though the 2nd time (and 2nd and last baby) will be just as easy but biology decided otherwise.
Long story short, she said that she wanted to terminate and asked how I felt about it. Couldn't go through with it. Not after seeing the heartbeat at 6 weeks. Turns out, nor could she. Sadly the pregnancy didn't work out and she miscarried again.
Funny really. Always though that it wouldn't be a big deal to me and when confronted with that very choice - massive deal. For both me and her.
Sorry to hear about that regulus. I've been in a similar situation a couple of years ago. We were asked about terminations due to the risk to my wife (she had a terrible time in the birth of our daughter) but decided against it only for her to miscarry.
When we were weighing up the termination, I never thought we'd go for it anyway. There's something inherently wrong in it. The kid is alive, might only be a couple of weeks - what gives me or my wife the right to end it? Then again I could have lost my wife had she carried to term. Point I'm making is as with regulus's experience, it's difficult - a lot of people think these are snap decisions, I honestly don't think they are in 99.9999% of occasions.
When we were weighing up the termination, I never thought we'd go for it anyway. There's something inherently wrong in it. The kid is alive, might only be a couple of weeks - what gives me or my wife the right to end it? Then again I could have lost my wife had she carried to term. Point I'm making is as with regulus's experience, it's difficult - a lot of people think these are snap decisions, I honestly don't think they are in 99.9999% of occasions.