Abu Dhabi Grand Prix 2012, Yas Marina - Race 18/20

JeditOjanen said:
1) That Toro Rosso was identical to the Red Bull and was designed by Adrian Newey. My point stands.

2) Vettel's point in USA 2007 was only scored because several drivers ahead of him had mechanical failures. He qualified 7th, but screwed up at the start and dropped to something like 12th or 14th. (I believe he was almost 20 when he scored it, BTW. Nobody's yet driven an F1 car even in a practice session at younger than 19.)
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Are you sure that the Torro Rosso was designed by Newey?
My understanding is that the TR had similar parts as the RBR, however, the RBR and TR were not identical. This was the reason why the owners of both teams, wanted Vettel in the faster RBR car.

Senna is regarded by many, as the best driver ever.
When Senna had the best car, he would crush the opposition.
When he had a lesser car, he would rely on the better cars to meet with misfortune, at which point he would be there to profit. Isn't this was Vettel is doing?

The best way to judge a driver is compare him with his team-mate. This removes the variable of better/worse cars. Even the experts on the telly state this. Beating your team-mate is VERY important.

When was the last time, Vettel was beaten in the championship, by his team-mate? I'm guessing here...NEVER. If I have this wrong, please inform me.

Here are some records which he already possesses.

My browser is crashing on me, otherwise I'd have copied and pasted. But have a read.
 
Skeeter said:
Because when you lift the rear the pivot point is the front axle, which is where the barge boards roughly are.
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ah yeah perspective makes it look that way, hmm interesting though wonder if the other cars with camera's mounted like that do the same, maybe its just part of the mounting mechanism.
 
Jono8 said:
1st Alonso
2nd Hamilton
3rd Vettel
4th Kimi
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I'd swap over 2nd and 3rd:

1 Alonso
3 Vettel
2 Hamilton
4 Kimi

Hamilton vs Vettel:
Hamilton + Fastest car = he might win the WDC.
Vettel + Fastest car = Always wins the WDC.

Alonso: I think most people would agree that he is the absolute best in F1.

Kimi: he returns from retirement and beats his team-mate. Not only that, but he beats other drivers in the WDC who have better cars under them.
(MSc is the exact opposite - he returns from retirement and loses to his team-mate, 3 years in a row. When Merc produce a race winning car, his team-mate is the winner...not him).
 
sunama said:
Kimi: he returns from retirement and beats his team-mate. Not only that, but he beats other drivers in the WDC who have better cars under them.
(MSc is the exact opposite - he returns from retirement and loses to his team-mate, 3 years in a row. When Merc produce a race winning car, his team-mate is the winner...not him).
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Was going to say Kimi has done what MSC was hoping to do.
 
sunama said:
I'd swap over 2nd and 3rd:

1 Alonso
3 Vettel
2 Hamilton
4 Kimi

Hamilton vs Vettel:
Hamilton + Fastest car = he might win the WDC.
Vettel + Fastest car = Always wins the WDC.

Alonso: I think most people would agree that he is the absolute best in F1.

Kimi: he returns from retirement and beats his team-mate. Not only that, but he beats other drivers in the WDC who have better cars under them.
(MSc is the exact opposite - he returns from retirement and loses to his team-mate, 3 years in a row. When Merc produce a race winning car, his team-mate is the winner...not him).
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I'd go with that, I really hate to say it but Vettel is probably better as a 'complete' racing driver than Lewis is.

Alonso is the best in F1 driver in recent years.
 
I don't get the 'complete' driver thing. It seems to be something the media have invented. How does someones attitude towards the press or how well they get on with the team have any relevance on their ability to drive a car fast? They don't hand out WDC points for being nice in interviews.

It seems to just be a way for people to reorder drivers to their liking. I know I do it when talking up Button because I can't put him ahead of Hamilton on raw ability.

Hamilton is a better driver than Vettel. He might be a complete train wreck when it comes to the media or conflict off the track, but that's got nothing to do with his ability as a driver.
 
sunama said:
Hamilton vs Vettel:
Hamilton + Fastest car = he might win the WDC.
Vettel + Fastest car = Always wins the WDC.
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I don't see how we can make this call at all. Neither Hamilton nor Alonso have had a car as dominant as Vettel's RBR before. Vettel's good, but right now we just don't know how good.

All we know about Vettel is that he's generally quite a bit better than Webber (and Bourdais). What we know about Hamilton is that in terms of pace he's Alonso's equal. I just don't think that either Hamilton or Alonso would have been beaten by Webber on 7 occassions in qualifying this year.
 
Hamilton and Alonso can wrestle a car on to a podium.

Vettel only wins when the car is set up perfectly. To say he's better than Hamilton suggests you're looking at the stats, and not the circumstances.

Vettel is a great driver but until he's in the 2nd or 3rd best car, I reserve my doubts than he's better than Hamilton. Most of the problems of the past 2 years have come from drivers or teams forcing the issue in a bid to keep up with Red Bull.
 
sunama said:
Hamilton vs Vettel:
Hamilton + Fastest car = he might win the WDC.
Vettel + Fastest car = Always wins the WDC.
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i think, had it not been for mclaren, hamilton would have won this championship.

i think if hamilton had been in vettels place for the last 2 years he would have won 2 championships too.

put vettel in this years mclaren ( arguably the fastest car) he would be in the same spot as hamilton is now. out of the championship due to team mistakes and reliability.

put him in the previous 2 years mclaren and he wouldnt have any championships either.

swap any of them top 3 drivers and i think they would have all achieved the same.

over the last 3 years vettel has has the fastest car for 2 and much better reliability.

mclaren has had it this year with poor reliability.

only thing we know 'for sure', is they are all better than their team mates and the top 3 drivers in the sport.
 
sunama said:
I'd swap over 2nd and 3rd:

1 Alonso
3 Vettel
2 Hamilton
4 Kimi

Hamilton vs Vettel:
Hamilton + Fastest car = he might win the WDC.
Vettel + Fastest car = Always wins the WDC.

Alonso: I think most people would agree that he is the absolute best in F1.

Kimi: he returns from retirement and beats his team-mate. Not only that, but he beats other drivers in the WDC who have better cars under them.
(MSc is the exact opposite - he returns from retirement and loses to his team-mate, 3 years in a row. When Merc produce a race winning car, his team-mate is the winner...not him).
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When Hamilton had the fastest car over a season, Alonso was his team mate. They simply took too many points off each other. If a driver of Alonsos ability was in that 2nd Red Bull and allowed to fight for the title Vettel would not have won the title this year, despite probably having the fastest car by the time the season is over.

He also would not have won the title in this years mclaren. If the team drops so many points what can he do. Vettel was a relative also ran until Newey worked more magic. Mark was looking good again against him.

Just as Kimi couldn't win in a mclaren when it was the fastest car on the grid. He was fast, the car was fast and he lost to a slightly slower more reliable package.

As for you stating Alonso is the best on the grid, last year you spent the full season telling us it was Vettel. What changed your mind.
 
Skeeter said:
I don't get the 'complete' driver thing. It seems to be something the media have invented. How does someones attitude towards the press or how well they get on with the team have any relevance on their ability to drive a car fast? They don't hand out WDC points for being nice in interviews.

It seems to just be a way for people to reorder drivers to their liking. I know I do it when talking up Button because I can't put him ahead of Hamilton on raw ability.

Hamilton is a better driver than Vettel. He might be a complete train wreck when it comes to the media or conflict off the track, but that's got nothing to do with his ability as a driver.
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I agree with you, however, the fact Lewis can get embroiled in media `issues` and then gets negative press, this can take his focus away from racing, affecting his mindset and ultimately his driving.

A driver who doesn`t have the same up and down relationship with the media doesn`t have to waste time / energy responding to it.
 
utajoker said:
i think, had it not been for mclaren, hamilton would have won this championship.

i think if hamilton had been in vettels place for the last 2 years he would have won 2 championships too.

put vettel in this years mclaren ( arguably the fastest car) he would be in the same spot as hamilton is now. out of the championship due to team mistakes and reliability.

put him in the previous 2 years mclaren and he wouldnt have any championships either.

swap any of them top 3 drivers and i think they would have all achieved the same.

over the last 3 years vettel has has the fastest car for 2 and much better reliability.

mclaren has had it this year with poor reliability.

only thing we know 'for sure', is they are all better than their team mates and the top 3 drivers in the sport.
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I don't fully agree with that. The set up of a car is greatly based on the feedback from the driver. I think different drivers with different teams would have produced differing car setups in every situation.
 
I think what everyone wants to see is a three way race between Hamilton, Alonso and vettel in that Red Bull :D
 
Jono8 said:
I think what everyone wants to see is a three way race between Hamilton, Alonso and vettel in that Red Bull :D
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Well actually to be fair , it would have to be three races in the three different cars - I dont think you would get a true reflection of their skills even if you give LH and FA a full race weekend in the RB after all SV has got 2 seasons experience in that car (only counting back that far because I would suspect further back it would handle a lot more differently)
 
I find these comments from Whitmarsh interesting....

To compound Whitmarsh's sense of frustration, the McLaren team are without a Constructors' Championship this century and Whitmarsh himself has yet to win a title since replacing Ron Dennis five months after Hamilton's 2008 success.

"Arguably we have been too conservative and risk-averse in regulation interpretation," Whitmarsh conceded in a separate interview with The Guardian. "Given our brand and our position, I think we are more risk-averse.

"There are things that have happened which, had our engineers come to me and said we're going to do this, I'd have said forget it. I'd rather campaign for clearer, less ambiguous regulations.

"It's the old Benetton effect, isn't it? Benetton - and I'm trying to avoid [mentioning] the obvious one today - Benetton was a brand that enjoyed controversy for their particular consumer. And there are some major brands in this paddock which like a little bit of that, whereas our brands don't tolerate it. There are teams that appear to have racier interpretations on regulations and resource restrictions."

Asked about those remarks as he faced up to the cameras ahead of qualifying in Abu Dhabi, Whitmarsh reiterated his impression that his team had been more risk-averse than most.

"I think we have, given our brand, got to make sure we're within the spirit of the regulations," he said.

"So I think we're a little bit risk averse but I think the challenge is to do a better job and make sure we interpret fairly and reasonably the regulations. But there's a limit to how far you can go in pushing them - certainly in our case."

So what do people make of that? Risk adverse due to their brand. Surely Mclaren have been in F1 long enough to push these limits to win. Is this a follow on from their huge cheating fine and they are now way to conservative making sure they are keeping their noses clean.

Ultimately all of that led to the fall of Dennis and maybe why Mercedes went elsewhere? Very strange comments I thought that they worry so much about the brand when no one else seems to care.
 
he acts like mclaren are some team with a clean reputation and they must maintain it but it wasnt that long ago they were surounded by controversy and they pretty much always were in the 90s.

I guess some teams dont want to go all out to win then....

time for a new TP?
 
If that's the case he needs to get new sponsors, or man up and let the engineers have free reign.

Sounds to me like they don't want to push the envelope (as Red Bull and Newey do ALL THE TIME), because they don't want to get caught out and dropped by sponsors should they seem to be unsporting.

I know which I'd rather be.. a championship winning team, that challenges regulations or another team that's afraid to spill the milk.

Good guys finish last, or haven't you heard? Ask Schumacher ;)
 
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