Abu Dhabi Grand Prix 2012, Yas Marina - Race 18/20

Tbh, I'm not sure anyone is going to be able to see which way Vettel went next year. I can't see how the gap RBR have pulled out on the rest of the field the second half of this year is going to do anything but get bigger. Brace yourselves for another 2011 style walkover.

Where Hamilton qualifies in comparison to Button will be irrelevant.
 
Tbh, I'm not sure anyone is going to be able to see which way Vettel went next year. I can't see how the gap RBR have pulled out on the rest of the field the second half of this year is going to do anything but get bigger. Brace yourselves for another 2011 style walkover

No disrespect meant - but I dont want to even think about this as a plausible outcome until at least April / May at the earliest

You may well be right, but you are still at least 6 months early :)
 
Its not something I'd want to see either. But with my realistic sensible head on, its looking rather ominous. With minimal rule changes next year and RBR on a charge, you have to be a brave man to bet against Red Bull winning both titles again.

Edit: I also just worked out that if Vettel wins this year, he will be 5 years younger than any other 3 times World Champion :/
 
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It wouldnt be the first time that cars are much better in quali than in the race

At the end of the day the points table is what counts

(If the Merc is as inferior next year as it has been for the last 2 - 3, you are dreaming lol but then of course yur welcome to do that )

Interestingly Rosberg has out qualified JB 7 times so far this season and at the half way point of the season had out qualified him 6 out of 9 times. I fancy Hamilton to better that next year as I feel Merc have all but given up on this years car hence why from the mid point Rosberg isn't qualifying so well.

So yeah I fancy a punt of Lewis beating JB next year in qually :D
 
Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen and Button would all be crushing him [Vettel] for certain. I also think Rosberg, Perez and Maldonado would be beating him too

What we do know is
1. Vettel has never been beaten by his team-mate, across a full season in F1 (correct me if I am wrong).
2. in the best car, he almost always wins and it usually takes rain or a breakdown to prevent the win.
3. when he starts in the pitlane, he has the ability to finish the race in 3rd.
4. that Hamilton (when he had the best car in some races this year), did not win all races...due to various problems...some of his own making. He was also beaten by Button.

Given the above, I cannot understand how anybody can say Hamilton is a better championship driver than Vettel. Faster over a single lap...possibly. But over the course of a full WDC...no way.

And to even suggest that Maldo or Rosberg are even in Vettel's class....I have no answer to this.

I do wish that NUTS could give us a better insight into Vettel. I remember he once said that Vettel was quite p'd off about finishing 2nd (I think it was). I was surprised to hear this. But this shows just how much of a perfectionist Vettel is and where he expects himself to finish (ie. top step of the podium, every time). Most drivers would have no problem finishing 2nd.

And when it comes to time trialling ability: having watched F1 for over 2 decades, I have never seen a driver of of Vettel's calibre. I can't even think of a driver who comes close. Possibly Prost. Possibly MSc. But Vettel, when he hits the front, knows how to control the race better than any other driver I have ever seen. Ever!

And with regards to the F1 records. I'm not sure if anybody has noticed, but he is in the process of re-writing every record which was set by MSc. I think Skeeter stated that if he wins a 3rd title, he will be the youngest ever triple WDC.

I rate Vettel behind 1 driver only - Alonso.
 
And when it comes to time trialling ability: having watched F1 for over 2 decades, I have never seen a driver of of Vettel's calibre. I can't even think of a driver who comes close. Possibly Prost. Possibly MSc. But Vettel, when he hits the front, knows how to control the race better than any other driver I have ever seen. Ever!

If I wasn't so tired I'd be crying with laughter.
 
Interestingly Rosberg has out qualified JB 7 times so far this season and at the half way point of the season had out qualified him 6 out of 9 times. I fancy Hamilton to better that next year as I feel Merc have all but given up on this years car hence why from the mid point Rosberg isn't qualifying so well.

So yeah I fancy a punt of Lewis beating JB next year in qually :D

and the tyre issue that was affecting McLaren at the beginning of the year shouldnt affect them next season (when Merc were doing better in comparision to McLaren in general)

Not only that but the car is probably going to be more to JB's liking (with Perez's inexperience, its less likely to be designed around his driving style even if McLaren get him in the car early enough to make significant changes)

Edit: I also just worked out that if Vettel wins this year, he will be 5 years younger than any other 3 times World Champion :/

And yet Jackie Stewart still doesnt think he is as good as the other triple champs lol
 
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McLaren are more than just an F1 team now though. They have the reputation of a road car manufacturer to keep too. They can't just be dragged through the press every weekend.

Whereas Red Bull make an effort to be associated with bonkers mental things, so love a bit if controversy around its F1 team.

If Red Bull made road cars I'd buy one in a heart beat. :p
 
Not only that but the car is probably going to be more to JB's liking (with Perez's inexperience, its less likely to be designed around his driving style even if McLaren get him in the car early enough to make significant changes)

Whitmarsh said the car was designed around Hamilton ;)
 
I have a lot of respect for Jackie Stewart, but he don't half chat some **** at times.

To be honest, given the list of three+ times champions is Schumacher, Fangio, Prost, Brabham, Stewart, Lauda, Piquet and Senna there's a lot of quality there. Its hardly like the mad post of someone suggesting that Rosberg or Maldonado would be beating him if they were in the other Red Bull.
 
Whitmarsh said the car was designed around Hamilton ;)

(Even if this is actually true, the time line involved doesnt mean it still will be come March)


Mclaren will be lucky to be 4th in the WCC next year.


IF they have the same issues they did this season you could be right.

The liklihood of that is pretty low however.

For all we know Lotus could have a reliability issue next season..... (which would balance out what they have gained and McLaren lost this season - must be gettting on for 25% of Lotus' points total)
 
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When has Lewis ever dragged a poor car round? The start of 2009? he done nothing special when the car was a dog and just spent even more time ranting down the radio, where is this reputation coming from?

For most of the season in 2009 the car was woeful and you could clearly see Hamilton drag that car forward, and for much of 2010 that car was miles behind the Red bull, just less badly so than the year before.

Hamilton had a very good car in his first season, in a rookie season he wasn't the number one driver but did so well the team basically already saw the sense in not holding him back in any way, lost the title by 1 point, matched Alonso and had a very very good year. The following year he won the title, then the car was pretty woeful for a long time and you could very easily see Hamilton with an inferior car pushing ever closer to the front. 2010 the same but a less dramatically awful first half of the season really.

What we do know is
1. Vettel has never been beaten by his team-mate, across a full season in F1 (correct me if I am wrong).
2. in the best car, he almost always wins and it usually takes rain or a breakdown to prevent the win.
3. when he starts in the pitlane, he has the ability to finish the race in 3rd.
4. that Hamilton (when he had the best car in some races this year), did not win all races...due to various problems...some of his own making. He was also beaten by Button.

Given the above, I cannot understand how anybody can say Hamilton is a better championship driver than Vettel. Faster over a single lap...possibly. But over the course of a full WDC...no way.

And when it comes to time trialling ability: having watched F1 for over 2 decades, I have never seen a driver of of Vettel's calibre. I can't even think of a driver who comes close. Possibly Prost. Possibly MSc. But Vettel, when he hits the front, knows how to control the race better than any other driver I have ever seen. Ever!

He's never had a team mate even on Button's quality, let alone Alonso, Heidfeld at BMW, poop, Luizzi, Bourdais, then Webber. He's never had a top notch driver, nothing even close.
Red bull has been easily the strongest car over the past 4 years, and last year it was by far the best car start to finish. Hamilton, Alonso, Button, no one else has had a car that was as fast as the Red Bull, Vettel had it easier. Faster isn't a single thing, Hamilton could have a car 0.01seconds a lap faster, not win off pole, and comparing it as a bad result to a car that is 3 seconds a lap faster who did win off pole. Calling both cars "faster" is disingenuous. When the Mclaren has been fastest, its rarely had a comfortable gap, when the Red Bull is fastest, it mostly has had a massive massive comfortable margin for BOTH drivers to cruise out into a comfortable lead.

3, when he starts in the pitlane, in a season 12-24th can be passed in 5 laps, and 8 of the top 12 fall over themselves in crashes, punctures, collisions and enforced extra pitstops AND he gets two lucky safety cars, he can finish 3rd. He can't and has never simply gone 24th to 3rd in a race with no safety cars without the vast majority of the top 10 screwing themselves. By comparison you could say Button is the best driver ever for being almost last without much of the race to go and winning Canada......

Hamilton has shown the ability to take not the fastest car, and nick pole off a car that is faster, he's shown the ability to hold off a faster car when race pace is lacking, Vettel has rarely done any of that. Think back to this season, how many times has Vettel had to hold off a faster car to keep the lead, not often, Hamilton, Kimi earlier in the season he held a clearly faster car back for most of an entire stint to win. With rear suspension failure he managed to hold off a whole bunch of people for ages before eventually being passed.

In general when you watch races, the Mclaren is faster only marginally, and Hamilton is under attack for huge parts of the race, under pressure, losing places, getting them back. Frequently, and I mean embarrassingly often(for other cars) the Red Bull cruises out to a lead, doesn't push hard, holds a gap, safety/car pits, or a problem that closes the gap, bam they just cruise out to a 10-15 second lead and continue on. No one in recent history as had a car capable of that.

When Vettel has been under pressure, which is rare, he simply doesn't look as good, when Vettel doesn't have the fastest car, its rare he does particularly well. This is the difference, when a car isn't good through corners, when the back end is slippy and its pure balls of steel and reactions of a god that get you through a corner at full speed when the car is sliding around, Alonso and Hamilton, not far behind Kimi, are unmatched. Its easy to power through corners with a car that is just completely stuck to the ground, when it isn't, Vettle looks far worse.

Comparing drivers when their car is the best is pointless, when its best, and fastest, by miles you don't have to push in corners, you look less ragged and there are less problems. I wish people would for all drivers stop talking about controlling races. They said that this weekend about Kimi..... you have a car, you drive, you control nothing, if your car is faster, its pretty easy to gain a lead and hold it, when its slower its not, neither is controlling or not.

Drivers prove their metal in the field, over taking, cornering with a BAD car, how good they are defensively, how they do when the car sucks, not when its great. Its easy to drive the best car, pole with a 1-2 second faster a lap car is pretty easy, 2nd from 4th on the grid with the 4th fastest car is much harder.

Alonson/Hamilton have shown time and time again that they can do that, Vettel hasn't, doesn't mean he can't, but he hasn't shown it and for me when the chips are down and the car isn't great, Vettel doesn't look great, Alonso/Hamilton still can, and have frequently.

ultimately I don't know if Vettel is a great driver, with that car he's barely ever needed to prove it, and has drived well within the car. Hamilton by way of having a worse car, has had to show his driving skills more often, as has Alonso, both have proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

and the tyre issue that was affecting McLaren at the beginning of the year shouldnt affect them next season (when Merc were doing better in comparision to McLaren in general)

Not only that but the car is probably going to be more to JB's liking (with Perez's inexperience, its less likely to be designed around his driving style even if McLaren get him in the car early enough to make significant changes)

The only person banging on about tyres was Button, when the tyre issue was "gone" it was balance, all the time, Hamilton had no issues, and no one else had an issue. I think we went through this when everyone laughed at him, when everyone realised it wasn't tyres and was just excuses. You know when Button admitted it wasn't tyres but he was having trouble setting up the car properly, and had to use Hamilton's setup because his just wasn't working?

JB won't be fast in qualifying because he's not fast in qualifying, how fast Perez is in comparison is unknown till they drive the same car. how good the car is next year is an unknown. Button's banging on about the best season in terms of Mclaren's competitive pace, is the worst car he's driven. The entire year has been excuse after excuse. He found a car stuck to the ground in corners with double diffusers easy to drive, a car that needs balls and pure driving reactions to go around a corner full speed, and Button looks uncomfortable. Again Alonson/Hamilton can take a car with not much grip and throw it around a corner stupid fast, Button lifts, he's not as fast, he doesn't like pushing a car beyond its limits.

He can win a title if Mclaren get the best car by a margin next year, if they can't, Button won't do anything, Perez..... I really haven't seen much this year that suggests he's brilliant, or bad, an inconsistent car that is good in a few particular races due to a particular strategy is very hard to really see how good the drive was, how much its just that car and that track, and how much its everyone else having one bad race. A more consistent car would maybe have made Perez's driving easier to judge, the pace he's shown in some races he just hasn't shown elsewhere, I think we won't know how good he is till we see him against Button, a somewhat known quantity now, and a car likely to be more consistent, over a half season.
 
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