Afghanistan - 20 years on

Colonel_Klinck said:
What would you have done differently dowie? Scrapped the withdrawal so ending the fragile peace? Performed some miracle that meant the Afghan army wouldn't just capitulate? What would you have done that would have bought about a different outcome?

To me Biden's biggest mistake was saying it would be fine and what has happened wouldn't happen. Who ever advised him to say/believe that needs sacking.
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Well, I don't think sneaking out in the middle of the night from Bagram without even letting the ANA know was a particularly great handover for a start! And do you not think that they had a duty to get a lot more Afghans out of the country first, like the various people now panicked and at the airport, people who risked their lives to assist the US during their time in the country and who might now essentially be thrown under the bus - that doesn't look good for the US internationally. not exactly a great message for future would-be providers of assistance either!

Colonel_Klinck said:
This is just too tragic. The desperation of these poor people to get out. This is on Biden, Trump, Obama and Bush. Oh and Tony Blair.
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Tony Blair and Bush aren't responsible for the evacuation of interpreters, embassy staff etc.. they haven't been in power for years.
 
Maybe I'm just heartless and out of touch, but why are other counties involved in the backwards nature of another country? what are they hoping to accomplish? nothings going to change them.
 
VincentHanna said:
OK?

What would you like them to say?
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There thoughts and opinions on the decision to withdraw, why the ANA fell down like a house of cards, should NATO have stayed to keep the country from falling into complete chaos and protect the rights and freedoms that Afghans enjoyed as a result. People like AOC have strong views on colonialism but also have equally strong view on women's rights (equal outcomes etc) I would like to see a reconciliation of those view points in the context of the an Afghanistan that's has now been handed over to the Taliban or a hallow expression of sympathy to those people.
 
One More Solo said:
Have you heard of 9/11? Let me tell you a story...
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My dad would say burn the entire place to the ground, no amount of intervention is going to change how that part of the world thinks. I wonder when people will grow out of the whole religion thing as-well, it served a kinda purpose in the early days (although many of the purposes where not good) but in the modern day, there's no need.
 
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Malevolence said:
Happy to kill themselves by hanging on the side of an aeroplane, but not willing to stand and fight for their country.
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How do you know all the people trying to get out were soldiers? Or should every civillian have bum rushed the local army base to steal a rifle in order to die fighting against an organised Taliban assault?

Even if they were soldiers I blame the commanders and structure of the army / government much more than the individuals.

I see where the 'should have died fighting' arguments are coming from, but they feel exceptionally cold and unreasonable to me.
 
MatsyLR said:
My dad would say burn the entire place to the ground, no amount of intervention is going to change how that part of the world thinks.
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The problem with that though is you've got likely the majority of the "civilian" population that actually want to live in peace with some extent of freedom. Unfortunately when you've got a bunch of extremist nutters who have basically staged a Coup d'état and will now rule over people with fear. A swift nuke would result in the loss of live of many innocent civilians who don't want that way of life.
 
Freddie1980 said:
There thoughts and opinions on the decision to withdraw, why the ANA fell down like a house of cards, should NATO have stayed to keep the country from falling into complete chaos and protect the rights and freedoms that Afghans enjoyed as a result. People like AOC have strong views on colonialism but also have equally strong view on women's rights (equal outcomes etc) I would like to see a reconciliation of those view points in the context of the an Afghanistan that's has now been handed over to the Taliban or a hallow expression of sympathy to those people.
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How much difference it would make is debatable but the US pulled out leaving a **** situation on the ground, doing little to address it the last few months, with Afghan forces spread out all over trying to hold ground leaving them easily outmaneuvered even if willing to fight, outstanding pay issues which only ensured the outcome, etc. there was a lot more which could have been done within the last few months if the US actually wanted them to have a chance - instead they pulled the rug and a lot of people will suffer.

Sure the Afghan government should have done better the last few years but that doesn't excuse the US.
 
dowie said:
Well, I don't think sneaking out in the middle of the night from Bagram without even letting the ANA know was a particularly great handover for a start! And do you not think that they had a duty to get a lot more Afghans out of the country first, like the various people now panicked and at the airport, people who risked their lives to assist the US during their time in the country and who might now essentially be thrown under the bus - that doesn't look good for the US internationally. not exactly a great message for future would-be providers of assistance either!
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Would any of that prevented the Taliban from taking control in the way they have? What would you have done that would have prevented the Taliban taking over?


dowie said:
Tony Blair and Bush aren't responsible for the evacuation of interpreters, embassy staff etc.. they haven't been in power for years.
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Is that all you've been criticising in this and the Biden thread? That we haven't gotten the interpreters out? Appears to be far more than that. There will be plenty in this thread that wouldn't want a single one of them to set foot in UK/US soil. I agree we should have gotten them out, so Boris is responsible as well. I would imagine a great deal of those people at the airport are just desperate people, the same kind of desperate people that have been fleeing Afghanistan for the last 20 years and who we turn our noses up at.

My comment on Bush and Blair is that they got us into this without any idea of an end game. They learnt nothing of the lessons handed out by the Afghans to so many other invaders, in the end the Afghans always win, the invaders leave with their tails between their legs. Its just history repeating itself.
 
Roar87 said:
Biden isn't responsible for the words coming out of his mouth then and someone else needs sacking lol
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Everyone is responsible for the words that come out of their mouths. Politicians have advisors, someone told him this wouldn't happen. He was foolish to listen to them. He'll pay a political cost for that mistake. Whoever it was they shouldn't be advising a president.
 
Robbo said:
Let's not beat about the bush, the Taliban are evil savages who will pillage the country.

The US have thrown them to the dogs. This will lead to a serious humanitarian and refugee crisis and we'll be left picking up the pieces, while Islamic terrorism has a place to thrive.

Just brilliant, really.
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The US didn't throw them. They left them. They left what should have been an army perfectly capable of standing on its own two feet. What they actually left was a bunch of corrupt, cowardly and traitorous individuals. It's those people that are responsible for what happens now in that country.
 
Roar87 said:
Biden isn't responsible for the words coming out of his mouth then and someone else needs sacking lol
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Its hilarious the length lefties will go to defend Biden, if it was Trump in power right now this thread would be full of them absolutely crucifying him. As its sleepy Joe he gets a free pass.

Jokester said:
Some of that footage at Kabul airport with folk clinging onto the USAF cargo planes is like something from World War Z.
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What an absolute **** show. And what an disgraceful abandoning of an entire people just tossed to the wolves.
 
Robbo said:
Let's not beat about the bush, the Taliban are evil savages who will pillage the country.

The US have thrown them to the dogs. This will lead to a serious humanitarian and refugee crisis and we'll be left picking up the pieces, while Islamic terrorism has a place to thrive.

Just brilliant, really.
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What would you have done? Trump made an agreement with the Taliban to leave early this year. Biden extended it but if Biden would have scraped it the fragile peace would have ended and soldiers would be dying again. If the Afghan army couldn't last a week with 20 years of training what makes you think another 5, 10, 15 years would make a difference? We should never have invaded.
 
Dis86 said:
The US didn't throw them. They left them. They left what should have been an army perfectly capable of standing on its own two feet. What they actually left was a bunch of corrupt, cowardly and traitorous individuals. It's those people that are responsible for what happens now in that country.
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Careful now, that looks too much like the truth.
 
deuse said:
Why Trump?
He never started the war and Biden was in charge and could have taken more action to save people.
Biden got it wrong again.
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You do realise who made this agreement and negotiated with the Taliban? It was Trump. Biden is just fulfilling his agreement with the Taliban. He was bragging at a MAGA rally just last month that the withdrawal is his achievement.
 
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