Afghanistan - 20 years on

[mmj_uk]

Happy to kill themselves by hanging on the side of an aeroplane, but not willing to stand and fight for their country.

The problem is most of the country are probably pro-Taliban, or at the very least sufficiently scared that they'll just roll over for them. Why wouldn't Muslims want to live under Islamic law though? What happened to the 300,000 strong Afghan army? they probably linked arms with the Taliban the moment our troops left and now Afghanistan is a bigger fortress than it was in 2002.

It was a stupid war from the start, absolutely unwinnable. Just a massive money-sink. I'd be looking at who pushed hardest and profited from it.

 

[200sols]

You do realise who made this agreement and negotiated with the Taliban? It was Trump. Biden is just fulfilling his agreement with the Taliban. He was bragging at a MAGA rally just last month that the withdrawal is his achievement.

Because Biden hasn't changed anything else Trump did in office, right? Even if you accept Biden had to withdraw, the complete cluster**** we are witnessing now is all on Biden.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

Its hilarious the length lefties will go to defend Biden, if it was Trump in power right now this thread would be full of them absolutely crucifying him. As its sleepy Joe he gets a free pass.

As the roar quote was a reply to me I'm assuming I'm a "lefty" but people show me where I give Biden a pass on this?

 

[Vulcan]

Because his people negotiated the withdrawal. This is his deal.

So in your view on Bush Jnr, Obama and Biden are to blame, but not Trump?

You do realise who made this agreement and negotiated with the Taliban? It was Trump. Biden is just fulfilling his agreement with the Taliban. He was bragging at a MAGA rally just last month that the withdrawal is his achievement.

So you would have both preferred that the US stayed in Afghanistan?

He signed the deal to get the US out, which most people want. He never signed a deal to say it had to be done in this manner.

 

[Fubsy]

Why are people clinging to this being all Trump? Biden could and should have stopped this. They knew this would happen, but have ripped off the plaster.

One administration does not have to do what another setup. Trump tore up the agreement with Iran once in the White House for example.

So you would have both preferred that the US stayed in Afghanistan?

He signed the deal to get the US out, which most people want.

It's what Trump supporters wanted. Not sure about Biden's guys wanted.

 

[Rroff]

The US didn't throw them. They left them. They left what should have been an army perfectly capable of standing on its own two feet. What they actually left was a bunch of corrupt, cowardly and traitorous individuals. It's those people that are responsible for what happens now in that country.

The Afghan government should have done better - but there was a lot more the US could have done in the last few months to leave them with the best chance of standing against the Taliban.

 

[Robbo]

What would you have done? Trump made an agreement with the Taliban to leave early this year. Biden extended it but if Biden would have scraped it the fragile peace would have ended and soldiers would be dying again. If the Afghan army couldn't last a week with 20 years of training what makes you think another 5, 10, 15 years would make a difference? We should never have invaded.

Indeed we shouldn’t have invaded. I’m not sure really that these backwards countries can ever really be saved (from a Western perspective, anyway), but perhaps measures could have been kept in place to keep the Taliban at bay. You wouldn’t even need a large force there, they know if they attacked US troops then they’d be signing their own death warrants.

 

[mmj_uk]

You do realise who made this agreement and negotiated with the Taliban? It was Trump. Biden is just fulfilling his agreement with the Taliban. He was bragging at a MAGA rally just last month that the withdrawal is his achievement.

As in the fact that they are even leaving, if Trump had never been elected they'd probably have been there another 20 years. I wouldn't even be surprised if the current White House has made such a mess of the withdrawal in order to gain sympathy to go back in without looking like warmongers (which they would have appeared as by simply reversing Trump's decision).

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

Because Biden hasn't changed anything else Trump did in office, right? Even if you accept Biden had to withdraw, the complete cluster**** we are witnessing now is all on Biden.

So he should have just scrapped it and sent in more troops and left it for the next POTUS to deal with?

 

[One More Solo]

My dad would say burn the entire place to the ground, no amount of intervention is going to change how that part of the world thinks. I wonder when people will grow out of the whole religion thing as-well, it served a kinda purpose in the early days (although many of the purposes where not good) but in the modern day, there's no need.

Clearly so many of the region's issues are rooted in religion. Unfortunately, secularism isn't just something that springs up over night, nor is there any guarantee that imposing our idea of civilisation will lead to liberalism and secularism. You don't have to look far across the Atlantic to see a conservative nation where religious zealots have a disproportionately loud voice.

Whether the modern world has a need that's fulfilled by religion is a much bigger question. I'd argue the need still very much exists but people haven't figured out how to fulfil it yet. No wonder we are so purposeless and nihilistic.

 

[Dis86]

The Afghan government should have done better - but there was a lot more the US could have done in the last few months to leave them with the best chance of standing against the Taliban.

I honestly can't see what. They spent 20 years building and training an army. That army simply didn't exist and was nothing but a way for corrupt individuals to enrich themselves.

 

[Washout]

Why Trump?
He never started the war and Biden was in charge and could have taken more action to save people.
Biden got it wrong again.

Well, it was his administration that negotiated with the Taliban as a means to kick off the US withdrawl. They even released the now Taliban leader from prison. It seems the assurances they gave the Taliban back then put the writing on the wall for the Afghan government and army that once the US was out they're essentially on their own. Little wonder their leadership crumbled so quickly.

Well, I don't think sneaking out in the middle of the night from Bagram without even letting the ANA know was a particularly great handover for a start! And do you not think that they had a duty to get a lot more Afghans out of the country first, like the various people now panicked and at the airport, people who risked their lives to assist the US during their time in the country and who might now essentially be thrown under the bus - that doesn't look good for the US internationally. not exactly a great message for future would-be providers of assistance either!
...

While I can't disagree with a lot of that I suspect the thought process was if the ANA and government can't stand now, what difference does a few months make? Doing it ahead of schedule and getting their folks out from the country, aside Kabul, means any attacks the Taliban had in mind for the summer were mute and no Americans in body bags.

I think Kabul falling immediately probably wasn't in their thought process until very very recently.

Happy to kill themselves by hanging on the side of an aeroplane, but not willing to stand and fight for their country.

Bet your folks are real proud of you. Shocking thing to say tbh.

 

[SPG]

Because who needs to fight a ground war/collect intelligence when you can just play station your enemy.

I see nothing wrong this, bad folk who want to hurt my way of life get taken out first, job done.

Walk softly but carry a big stick.

 

[Efour]

When one of my work colleges Fs up the day before and I have to clear the mess, I'm still responsible for that outcome because im where the buck stops that day no one else cares why there's a F up they care that today is going smooth.

Biden and his team are todays idiots unfortunately.

 

[Joxeon]

Let's face it the US now looks even more of a laughing stock on the world stage than when Trump was in charge.

 

[Dis86]

Let's face it the US now looks even more of a laughing stock on the world stage than when trump was in charge.

It shows that they simply do not care about their alleged allies.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I see most Trump/Biden comments are still failing to realise that this isn’t a partisan issue in the US or the U.K.

The vast majority of voters for both republican and democrat parties want out of Afghanistan ASAP.

The same applies for labour and conservative in the U.K.

Regardless of the media says, the vast majority of people support an immediate withdrawal and with what ever costs that entails.

 

[Efour]

Walk softly but carry a big stick.

 

[200sols]

So he should have just scrapped it and sent in more troops and left it for the next POTUS to deal with?

Did I say that?

The withdrawal in principle is not the problem, it is the way it has been handled. When was it Biden said there would be no embassy evacuations by helicopter?