I’ve even seen some as high as 420% after a lot more research. Impossible? Maybe go and understand what a heat pump is
Edit: I do have to wonder why you’d even reply in a heat pump thread if you don’t even know what one is?
Air Con Suggestions
- Thread starter tntcoder
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Edit: I do have to wonder why you’d even reply in a heat pump thread if you don’t even know what one is?
So is this technically illegal or not? I plan to buy 3 pre charged systems in a few months time....it’d be nice to know whether I am going to need to be careful with what I mention to the installer for the final evac etc.
I’ve even seen some as high as 420% after a lot more research. Impossible? Maybe go and understand what a heat pump is
Edit: I do have to wonder why you’d even reply in a heat pump thread if you don’t even know what one is?
So you can move 3-4kW of heat with 1kW of power. That's a different thing entirely.
No it’s not, it is the efficiency of the unit in the context of a heat pump. The desired effect is heat inside the house. Either you create that heat at 100% efficiency using an electric element (as we currently do), or you produce that heat by pumping it into the house from the exterior. Same net result, but the heat pump achieves 4kw for every 1kw burnt To do so, ie, a useful efficiency of 400%.
See here.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/qualifications-required-to-work-on-equipment-containing-f-gas
You will notice the words,
"You must be qualified to work on systems and equipment containing fluorinated greenhouse gases (F gas) that the EU regulates.
You need different qualifications for:
- stationary refrigeration and air conditioning (SRAC systems), including heat pump systems
- stationary fire protection systems
- mobile air conditioning systems
- electrical switchgear
- solvent recovery
More specifically in relation to domestic split air, further down in the same document you will find,
"Stationary refrigeration and air conditioning (SRAC) systems, including heat pump systems
To work on these systems you must be qualified if you want to:
- install new systems
- service and maintain them
- check leaks
- recover refrigerant gases
- decommission and dispose of old systems"
There is no way around it, if you want to install or work on ANY system with an F-Gas in it, you MUST be qualified.
Also of April 1st 2018 here is no separation between, installation without releasing the gas, and installation full stop, so you cannot fit the units (if pre charged) and/or pipework into place and get someone else to release the gas.
Obviously If you purchase empty split air system, I.E. you purchase an interior unit and and exterior unit and install them, and then get a certified installer to pipe it up and fill with gas, then you are perfectly entitled to do that.
It is purely the fact that many kits come pre charged that them makes you fall foul of the new regulations, if you try to install them while not qualified.
I would assume retailers are not taking notice of the new regs, because they either do not know, or they just hope they don't get reported, and continue to make money selling these pre charged units to non qualified persons.
I know several retailers that do now require proof of qualification to purchase these units, but by no means do all require it yet, I am sure it will come though, maybe even before these types of units are completely banned, as that is coming too.
Soldato
We have our loft converted into a small bedroom for my youngest son, small office for myself and a larger bedroom for my 2 eldest sons, its toasty up there over the summer periods so looking to have a permeant solution installed, we have about 1K to spend. Are there any good companies I could speak to about an estimate do we know chaps?
Sorry to hijack the thread
Sorry to hijack the thread
Of course I have - it's my job, designing AC/Heat pumps, whatever.
Did you not notice the bit where a "hermetically sealed system" can be sold to the public, - and that includes systems which have capped off ports for maintenance, etc?
The Halfords "being investigated" - no proof yet?
Their EZchill is NOT R134a, it's a refrigerant that is compatible with Ri34a. Plenty of non-controlled refrigerants are compatible with it and other refrigerants, they just don't give the same performance - but if it's good enough to get the aircon cold, it'll do. Have you heard about the latest and greatest refrigerant, R77? It's CO2, plain CO2.
I can see you know enough to do your job, but nothing more.
So again, please show me where Halfords are "under investigation" as you claim? It shouldn't be hard to find...
I "Installed" (plugged in) a portable air conditioner that contains an F gas yesterday - and Tesco sold it to me. So they are happily selling F gas to the public, illegally? I am F gas certified so it isn't an issue - but there were plenty more units for sale and I didn't see any letters of assurance being produced...
Oh, I also bought a new fridge about a month ago - again, is every seller of fridges breaking the law?
It definitely contains an F gas - because there was a sticker on the back warning me not to work on it unless I was certified, and to bring it to the council tip when disposing of it, where they will recover the gas before putting it in landfill or whatever they want to do with it.
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Nice try.....
"Hermetically sealed" units are fridges and freezers and yes portable AC units that come ready to use and do not need ANY installation or pipework adding or gas releasing, or adding to get them working.
Split air kits that are capped off until pipe work is added, gas is released or added into the system, ARE NOT hermetically sealed units under F-Gas regulations.
If you actually read the links I posted you will see that Hermetically sealed units are not covered by F-Gas, and nor are they illegal to sell, because under normal use of the products there is little to zero chance of releasing the refrigerant gas to the atmosphere.
Also as to saying Ez-Chill is NOT R134a, I think you might need to read the STP MSDS for EZ-Chill and have another go at that statement.
http://www.my-sds.co.uk/Admin/ViewD...ingID=1&MasterCompanyID=347&primaryReportId=0
Download the whole PDF, as the link only shows page one, then once downloaded scroll to page 2 look at section 3.2 Mixtures and you will find that the product contains between 50% to 100% 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane, otherwise known as R134a.
As to the Halfords' investigation, I cannot tell you more, as it is an ongoing investigation by DEFRA and the Environment agency, and I know about it because my wife works for the Environment agency, and is part of the investigation team, it's a current investigation so fairly obviously nothing has been published about it yet, as there a slight possibility of criminal proceedings, at the end of it, that is all I can say.
However as you are a designer, let me ask you how you would go about designing a system to take a chamber 15.5metres long, 14.5m wide and 8m tall down to various temperatures and hold it at that temperature while there are vehicles running inside producing somewhere in the region of 23kwh of heat energy.
The temperature range needed is -70°C to +120°C.
That's my project currently.
Soldato
So... Are there any recommendations for A/C for people who don't need to know about RF1234J certificates or whatever?
Buy a sealed split unit - from Appliances Direct or wherever, they are pre charged, both the units and pipes. Core bit and drill, 90mm - hire one and core out from inside, then once the drill bit breaks through, go outside and finish from there to avoid spalling your bricks. Put the inside unit inside using the template, put the outside unit where you wish, then use the "umbilical cord" to connect them, leave it for an hour, then turn it on. It's that simple!
Hermetically sealed - there is a distinct "loophole" in the F gas regulations - read up on it. It allows sealed units INCLUDING splits, to be handled and installed by Joe public. That's why they are on sale without having to produce a cert. I'm not talking about units that need gas added or pipework added, I'm talking about the splits that have a fixed, charged, length of hose, gassed up, and just need connected.
You'll find that your link for EZ-chill is 16 years out of date, and completely invalid.
Your Halfords investigation? Get a grip. , and that is a fact. You can ask the environment agency yourself, under the FOI act - they might be a little more forthcoming than your wife.
As for your project - email me a breakdown of it including the chamber wall makeup, typical expected inside/outside temperatures, and I'll happily price you up a system.
If you were correct, every supermarket in the land would be illegally selling mobile and split units.
You have gone from "they can't sell that legally, because it contains an F gas" to "in some situations, you may need a certified engineer" - look at your first post in the thread.
You clearly have NO idea about what you are talking about.
I wouldn’t get too hung up about it, I’ve bumped into this guy on a similar thread concerning pressure testing and dehydrating systems. All he kept doing was linking to out of date documents to try and prove his point.
Googling stuff is one thing but knowing it is another...
Hermetically sealed - there is a distinct "loophole" in the F gas regulations - read up on it. It allows sealed units INCLUDING splits, to be handled and installed by Joe public. That's why they are on sale without having to produce a cert. I'm not talking about units that need gas added or pipework added, I'm talking about the splits that have a fixed, charged, length of hose, gassed up, and just need connected.
You'll find that your link for EZ-chill is 16 years out of date, and completely invalid.
Your Halfords investigation? Get a grip. , and that is a fact. You can ask the environment agency yourself, under the FOI act - they might be a little more forthcoming than your wife.
As for your project - email me a breakdown of it including the chamber wall makeup, typical expected inside/outside temperatures, and I'll happily price you up a system.
If you were correct, every supermarket in the land would be illegally selling mobile and split units.
You have gone from "they can't sell that legally, because it contains an F gas" to "in some situations, you may need a certified engineer" - look at your first post in the thread.
You clearly have NO idea about what you are talking about.
I wouldn’t get too hung up about it, I’ve bumped into this guy on a similar thread concerning pressure testing and dehydrating systems. All he kept doing was linking to out of date documents to try and prove his point.
Googling stuff is one thing but knowing it is another...
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Thanks for the post, transam, I figured that these units cannot be illegal as literally everyone sells them including applicances direct, Debenhams, John Lewis, the lot! Hardly not reputable companies.
I’ll go ahead and buy the easyfit systems as recommended and will give them a go. Worst case get an engineer to help out but it’s hardly rocket science for a fairly competent DIY (I do everything else, heating, plumbing, electrics, building). I do not wish to do anything illegal but I simply don’t believe that I can get in trouble for buying an off the shelf item from a reputable retailer, that seems bonkers.
I’ll go ahead and buy the easyfit systems as recommended and will give them a go. Worst case get an engineer to help out but it’s hardly rocket science for a fairly competent DIY (I do everything else, heating, plumbing, electrics, building). I do not wish to do anything illegal but I simply don’t believe that I can get in trouble for buying an off the shelf item from a reputable retailer, that seems bonkers.
Soldato
You misunderstand.
3-4kw of thermal energy (heat or cold) for 1kW of electricity. The 1kW of electric is used to run the heat pump, Moving heat from one end to the other. Yes, 400% efficiency is possible.
1kw of electricity is simply used to pump cold (or hot) from outside to inside (or vice versa). Not creating extra energy using magic, simply moving it from one place to another.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance
Not breaking the laws of physics, using them to our advantage.
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I know most men do not read instructions manuals, but if you did, you would find that by reading instructions from many manufacturers included in their kits, it actually says in them the units can only be fitted by qualified personnel"
All Daikin split kit units I have fitted say in the manual;
"Do not attempt to install or repair the air conditioner yourself. Improper workmanship may result in water leakage, electric shocks or fire hazards. Please contact your local dealer or qualified personnel for installation and maintenance work"
All the Mitsubishi kits say; "The system must be installed by your dealer or a qualified professional."
Everyone keeps quoting Appliances direct, even on their website they say all the kits they sell must be fitted by qualified personnel.
Also all their warranties are invalid if the kits are not commissioned by qualified engineers, so if they have to commission it they will most likely want to install it as well, I certainly would never commission anything I had not installed, as would any other competent engineer, who had to put their name to an install.
If almost all the kit manufacturers tell you to use a suitably qualified installer, then it cannot be correct for a non qualified person to install ??
Actually it is dated 28/09/2015 and is the current MSDS for the STP EZ-Chill that is exclusively sold through Halfords.
To save you the time and effort of clicking the mouse a few times here is the MSDS currently in date and saying conclusively that the Halfords Ez-Chill top up contains 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane, otherwise known as R134a.
STP website showing the Ez-Chill is exclusive to Halfords
MSDS for STP Ez-Chill Scroll to page 2 section 3.2 Mixtures
In fact STP's own product number for it is EZ-134RFL, I wonder why that is so close to R134a ??
Hmm let me think about that for a moment ........
Nicely edited to now not call me a liar, like your original post did that I had to report.
By all means try a FOI request, then you will see who is telling the truth.
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Hehe, I was banned for calling you a "nob". As for the manuals - I write them.
Again, you said
"So legally no one without full F-Gas certification can buy or sell any refrigeration gas whether that gas is supplied is in a small canister, or included in a ready to fit system, or any other method of delivery."
That must be why all the supermarkets are being taken to court and fined - oh, wait, they are not.
As for Halfords being "investigated" - My workplace is right next to a huge Civil Service building, so I will show you that is untrue in no time.
Wait a day or two, and I will educate you on the details you should be already educated in.
Deleted member 651465
D
Deleted member 651465
Back on topic please.
Soldato
Would this be a good solution if I just wanted it to act similarly to air con? I would probably not want to replace all of my heating which is reasonably new and done by gas, but I would welcome the ability to cool the house down, and assist in keeping it warm in the winter.
Soldato
Its my understanding that an Air to Air heat pump is exactly what a mini-splt/Air conditioning unit is!
Seriously considering one for the living room and the two 'lived in' bedrooms.. Can control/limit temperature in the hot summer months (powered by the excess of solar PV generation), and in the winter it is there as a back up heating source/supplemental heating.
No need to replace the lot, just get one wall unit installed where you want. I have a small 3 bed, and between a fire and one wall unit, my home is warm enough.
Soldato
I picked up an AC unit as my baby's room is 28c at night at the moment which is far too high for a newborn. Next house we'll get a split system, even if it's only used for a week a year it'll be worth it especially when the inevitable "next one" arrives.
Was rather hoping it would cool the room down enough to turn it off and stay cool-ish for an hour or so but after getting it down to 19c and turning it off it was back to 26 within 20 minutes. Alas.
Was rather hoping it would cool the room down enough to turn it off and stay cool-ish for an hour or so but after getting it down to 19c and turning it off it was back to 26 within 20 minutes. Alas.