AMD Navi 23 ‘NVIDIA Killer’ GPU Rumored to Support Hardware Ray Tracing, Coming Next Year

Doobedoo · 22 Jul 2020 at 18:31

FoxEye said:
The right hand side one is pure crap! Look at the rivets in the foreground, for one.. and the number of visible jaggies.

Middle is best.

That was my point you have to look hard to notice you won’t be able to notice or pay that much attention while your actually playing the game, explosions, bullets flying, enemies moving in front of you.

It’s all good we like more detail and better features but it’s no where near as important as more performance and better pricing.

chris85oc · 22 Jul 2020 at 18:35

Comparing it to the old DLSS, sure fidelityFX was "better" since the result is sharper. DLSS 1.0 was bad, but showed promise because of the idea behind it and what it could achieve eventually. That eventually is here today.

Comparing FFX to the new DLSS, the new DLSS is leagues above reconstructing missing details / resolving any aliasing shimmering etc. Case in point, death stranding. Again i use this comparison because people like to ignore it since there is no argument to be had regarding it.

Yes, this is 1080p, and yes in 4k it gets away with it more, because there are more pixels to work with. However using 1080p you can easily see what each tech really does under the hood, and how FFX is nothing more than a sharpening/upscaling technique, it doesn't add detail that isn't there, doesn't use AI to guesstimate etc.

DLSS still beats it by a large margin, both FFX and native due to the image having a stable pristine look with no shimmering/aliasing in motion while maintaining clear crisp details (bar a few problems with particles which are indeed lower quality in certain scenarios)

Fidelity fx:

DLSS:

Doobedoo · 22 Jul 2020 at 18:39

Again my eyes must need calibrating because I see no difference at all at first glance. I could actually see differences in the one Humbug posted after I zoomed in. What exactly should I be seeing?

Edit. I see a difference in the power cable being more solid and present in the DLSS screenshot. Now I see what I’m missing

.

humbug · 22 Jul 2020 at 18:40

chris85oc said:
Comparing it to the old DLSS, sure fidelityFX was "better" since the result is sharper. DLSS 1.0 was bad, but showed promise because of the idea behind it and what it could achieve eventually. That eventually is here today.

Comparing FFX to the new DLSS, the new DLSS is leagues above reconstructing missing details / resolving any aliasing shimmering etc. Case in point, death stranding. Again i use this comparison because people like to ignore it since there is no argument to be had regarding it.

Yes, this is 1080p, and yes in 4k it gets away with it more, because there are more pixels to work with. DLSS still beats it by a large margin, both FFX and native due to the image having a stable pristine look with no shimmering/aliasing in motion while maintaining clear crisp details (bar a few problems with particles which are indeed lower quality in certain scenarios)

Fidelity fx:

DLSS:

Other than the cable i can't tell the difference between these two images.

EastCoastHandle · 22 Jul 2020 at 18:43

I'm sure you need to zoom in 30 miles to see the difference /s.
What people are doing is using DLSS 2.0 then using NVCP sharpening. As the sharpening feature in the game is grayed out for them.
Point is that they aren't using DLSS alone.

But as always, seeing the cable in the further reaches of the screen shot is everything. Don't you recall the Halflife 2 IQ comparisons from back in the day?

Sargatanas2511 · 22 Jul 2020 at 18:44

Still not overly sold on DLSS but it does look (a bit) better there than FidelityFX. A proper implementation can be impressive it's just a shame it's too few and far between.

chris85oc · 22 Jul 2020 at 18:47

The cables, the structures, the fences, etc. Everything which has an edge basically. And in anything else (even native with TAA) you can see the shimmering. Even in 4k (55" from 2m away) i can see it, and my eyesight isn't 20/20 either. DLSS is the only mode that offers no shimmer at all in motion.

You can laugh, ridicule, whatever else you want. Not going to change my experience. I'm just saying. If you can actually test it or see it yourself, go for it then make your own conclusions. Sites are biased, users are biased. You could think im a fanboy or biased as well. Maybe i am. Still doesn't change the fact that i tested all settings both on my monitor and on my 4k oled and DLSS is above all the rest, even ignoring the performance loss when running native.

EastCoastHandle · 22 Jul 2020 at 18:49

chris85oc said:
You can laugh, ridicule, whatever else you want.

Ok good, so it's settled then

humbug · 22 Jul 2020 at 18:49

chris85oc said:
The cables, the structures, the fences, etc. Everything which has an edge basically. And in anything else (even native with TAA) you can see the shimmering. Even in 4k (55" from 2m away) i can see it, and my eyesight isn't 20/20 either. DLSS is the only mode that offers no shimmer at all in motion.

You can laugh, ridicule, whatever else you want. Not going to change my experience. I'm just saying. If you can actually test it or see it yourself, go for it then make your own conclusions. Sites are biased, users are biased. You could think im a fanboy or biased as well. Maybe i am. Still doesn't change the fact that i tested all settings both on my monitor and on my 4k oled and DLSS is above all the rest, even ignoring the performance loss when running native.

I see the cable, yes, but thats it, all the buildings in the background look identical to me.

chris85oc · 22 Jul 2020 at 18:52

Open both in different tabs and switch between them. Look at fences, cables, everything with a hard edge. Mostly far away detail. Also a still image doesn't show you how stable the DLSS image is while both native and FFX have shimmering edges everywhere with unresolved detail.

Anyway, said what I had to say, again best thing is to test yourself or test at someone who can show you if that's not an option.

Sargatanas2511 · 22 Jul 2020 at 18:52

humbug said:
I see the cable, yes, but thats it, all the buildings in the background look identical to me.

There's definitely extra sharpness in the DLSS image. Pull them into their own tab and flick back and forth, especially on the two central buildings.

humbug · 22 Jul 2020 at 18:59

Sargatanas2511 said:
There's definitely extra sharpness in the DLSS image. Pull them into their own tab and flick back and forth, especially on the two central buildings.

Yes i see it now, there is a small difference at the long range, you can't see it unless its pointed out to you.

@chris85oc FedelityFX does a good job of it, its not quite as good as DLSS in its current form. How important do you really think this is and if i replace my card with an Nvidia one can i run DLSS in Star Citizen, Insurgency, Insurgency Sandstorm, Boarderlands 3, Left4Dead, Deep Rock Galactic, World of Warships, Hell Let Lose, Warframe... all games i'm currently playing.

FedelityFX works very well in every single one of those titles. It will work in ANY title.

Chuk_Chuk · 22 Jul 2020 at 18:59

If people are willing to turn DLSS on, then why not just use a lower graphics setting? At this point you clearly don't care that much about graphical fidelity, so just turn it down a notch.

Doobedoo · 22 Jul 2020 at 19:02

Again Dlss does took better but only when you really look closely, in real-time the difference will be almost imperceptible especially if you are fully immersed in the actual game rather than the vistas.

Sargatanas2511 · 22 Jul 2020 at 19:07

humbug said:
Yes i see it now, there is a small difference at the long range, you can't see it unless its pointed out to you.

@chris85oc FedelityFX does a good job of it, its not quite as good as DLSS in its current form. How important do you really think this is and if i replace my card with an Nvidia one can i run DLSS in Star Citizen, Insurgency, Insurgency Sandstorm, Boarderlands 3, Left4Dead, Deep Rock Galactic, World of Warships, Hell Let Lose, Warframe... all games i'm currently playing.

FedelityFX works very well in every single one of those titles. It will work in ANY title.

Absolutely, it's definitely not a game-changer or anything but fair's fair, they are offering a little bit better IQ with more performance. You just have to hope that it's available on the games you play which is unlikely.

chris85oc · 22 Jul 2020 at 19:09

Chuk_Chuk said:
If people are willing to turn DLSS on, then why not just use a lower graphics setting? At this point you clearly don't care that much about graphical fidelity, so just turn it down a notch.

I'm not sure you understand. DLSS is better than native in image quality (bar a few problems with particles). It's just as sharp, provides a performance boost, and has no shimmering (compared in 4k both vs native and native with TAA myself). If you just read forums or take other peoples words, anything flies i guess. Try it yourself maybe? If you can.

Doobedoo said:
Again Dlss does took better but only when you really look closely, in real-time the difference will be almost imperceptible especially if you are fully immersed in the actual game rather than the vistas.

Idk about you, but having shimmering on every hard edge isn't imperceptible to me. Since the game moves, the edges move. On every fence, structure and whatnot. The static image comparison is actually detrimental to DLSS since it doesn't show how stable the image is compared to all the other modes.

If you're not bothered by aliasing i guess DLSS doesn't provide that much of a benefit then.

@humbug obviously if you don't play any games that support it, it's pointless. Also never suggested to anyone to change their card just for DLSS as long as performance is pretty much equal.

melmac · 22 Jul 2020 at 19:10

humbug said:
FidelityFX not being DLSS doesn't make it not the same thing in its result.

The one in the Middle is FidelityFX. No, FidelityFX works in any game old or new without any developer input/

FidelityFX has to be added per game by the developer.

Posting DLSS 1.0 images, really Humbug?

Doobedoo · 22 Jul 2020 at 19:23

chris85oc said:
Idk about you, but having shimmering on every hard edge isn't imperceptible to me. Since the game moves, the edges move. On every fence, structure and whatnot. The static image comparison is actually detrimental to DLSS since it doesn't show how stable the image is compared to all the other modes.

If you're not bothered by aliasing i guess DLSS doesn't provide that much of a benefit then.

@humbug obviously if you don't play any games that support it, it's pointless. Also never suggested to anyone to change their card just for DLSS as long as performance is pretty much equal.

If it’s worth it for you then that’s all that matters I doubt I’d know if it was turned on without my knowledge. It’s kind of like audio when people talk about depth, brightness and all the other terminology that is almost Imperceptible to my untrained ears.

Chuk_Chuk · 22 Jul 2020 at 19:29

chris85oc said:
I'm not sure you understand. DLSS is better than native in image quality (bar a few problems with particles). It's just as sharp, provides a performance boost, and has no shimmering (compared in 4k both vs native and native with TAA myself). If you just read forums or take other peoples words, anything flies i guess. Try it yourself maybe? If you can..

I'm sorry what? How can something be "better" than the orginal rendered image. For it to be "better" the original must be lacking something.

What does just as sharp mean? Why is being "sharp" better? Surely the game devs know how "sharp" they want certain details to be?

Also how are these comparisons done? How can we be sure that throughout the game, DLSS is providing the same IQ?
How is this trained? Is there someone playing a version of this game at Nvidia HQ at 8K to help train this. Or do they just select a few locations and call it job done.

People stick everything on ultra high and buy a new £1200 graphics card because they are not willing to turn settings down. We have people waiting to upgrade from a 2080ti because it can't run 4k at 120+Hz. Yet they are willing to take a gamble on DLSS providing just as good IQ throughout the entire game as native res.
Why pretend to care about IQ at this point, or getting a pure experience. Turn it down from ultra high to high, render it at say 90% of 4k res, all those tensor cores can be switched out for hardware that improves rasterization performance.

Edit: I admit I could be missing something here but it seems to be that people just want to pretend they are getting the "pure" experience.

Dave2150 · 22 Jul 2020 at 19:31

humbug said:
FidelityFX not being DLSS doesn't make it not the same thing in its result.

The one in the Middle is FidelityFX. No, FidelityFX works in any game old or new without any developer input/

DLSS looks a blurry mess there. My eyes are automatically drawn to the Tiger tank (big tank fan), the textures on top of the tank turret's roof look like PS1 textures.