AMD Navi 23 ‘NVIDIA Killer’ GPU Rumored to Support Hardware Ray Tracing, Coming Next Year

[D.P.]

@humbug : no.. I don't think AMD can do the same to Nvidia right now. Graphics are a much harder work load. If they could do a successful chiplet design (unlikely).. Then maybe....or something else smart. They already tried wider memory and it didn't really help.

The comparisons to Intel in the PCU space are frankly irrelevant as Nvidia is not Intel. Intel experienced issued due to numerous factors combining. Intel use their on node, when 10nm kept slipping that spelled disaster. Nvidia doesn't they use TSMC or Samsung, whichever can provide the necessary performance at the right price. AMD and Nvidia have parity here. Intel also reduced R&D in CPU space in order to expand bussiness in other areas, reducing teh technological lead. Nvidia is doing the exact opposite, and is pumping in more and more R&D dollars increasing their GPU technology lead over AMD. This has reached such a point wherre Nvidia can sit back with a cheaper high yield 16/12nm process and still compete against a 7nm GPU



Any kind if chiplet design for a gaming GPU is at least 10 years away, and if we go by the number of patents and research articles released Nvidia is a long way ahead of where AMD is at. Nvidia is manufacturing functional MCM protoype GPUs and publishing details in the public space they are so confident in their technological lead here.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-msm-inference-chip,39780.html

 

[Stretlow]

AMD's GCN shaders are nothing like as efficient as Nvidia's, there is massive bottleneck somewhere in the front end.

RDNA is a massive ground up rework, its a much much better architecture, better than Pascal but only about 95% that of Turing, i say "only" that's not bad and a massive step up from GCN, RDNA2 will improve that again, its shaders may even surpass Turing.

The problem is Nvidia are willing to make massive GPU's because they know they can sell them by the millions at very high prices, AMD can't do that, which is one reason the 5700XT is so small and clocked to the limit which utterly destroys that half decent the power efficiency built into them.

And Nvidia, they are still on 12nm, watch what happens when they move to 7nm.

AMD are doing a very good job with RDNA, it is an example of AMD's great capabilities in GPU design, but they don't have the market behind them to make Nvidia sweat, which is the least they need to do.

PS: HBM was not created for Gaming, its a workstation thing, in that its good, even Nvidia use it.

Not as technically proficient as you are mate but regarding the market comment, could we not say that AMD were in a similar position in the CPU market not to long back which they have now turned around so is proven to be possible?

 

[JediFragger]

Not as technically proficient as you are mate but regarding the market comment, could we not say that AMD were in a similar position in the CPU market not to long back which they have now turned around so is proven to be possible?

Yes and no, Intel constantly tripped over their own dick this last few years which allowed AMD an 'in' as it were, which was perfectly timed with Ryzen gaining strength

 

[Stretlow]

Yes and no, Intel constantly tripped over their own dick this last few years which allowed AMD an 'in' as it were, which was perfectly timed with Ryzen gaining strength

SO then isn't the ridiculous price of a top end GPU at the moment all the "in" they need?

 

[JediFragger]

SO then isn't the ridiculous price of a top end GPU at the moment all the "in" they need?

Yes and no, that's a bit of an outlier and in a bracket of its own. Mid-range and below is where the real money is made, and AMD have solid offerings there

 

[HEADRAT]

The market sets pricing, Nvidia simply responds

No, NVIDIA set the price of their product. While it is true if nobody bought the product at the eyewatering prices NVIDIA set then they may drop prices there is obviously only a certain amount of margin in any product, NVIDIA aren't going to sell cards at a loss.

 

[D.P.]

No, NVIDIA set the price of their product. While it is true if nobody bought the product at the eyewatering prices NVIDIA set then they may drop prices there is obviously only a certain amount of margin in any product, NVIDIA aren't going to sell cards at a loss.

Economics 101. If no one would pay the high prices, and Nvidia could not decrease margins, they would designed a cheaper product to gain margins and profits. As it is, people pay the prices, the market sets the value, and NVidia responds

 

[LambChop]

Yes and no, that's a bit of an outlier and in a bracket of its own. Mid-range and below is where the real money is made, and AMD have solid offerings there

They are miles behind in every segment. AIB they are being gimped, even with the 'real money being made' sections, you're talking roughly 1 gpu in 4 is amd. In integrated, with all the console chips, AMD are still behind, can you imagine if they lost that contract.

 

[HEADRAT]

Economics 101

But economics dont' really factor here as most people buying a 2080TI have "money to burn" and it's seen as a "premium product" therefore NVIDIA can't ask for a "premium price". There will always be the "high" end, look at cars/motorbikes/av equipment etc, all of these have what are seen as "premium products" that sell for ££££.

NVIDIA don't need to design a "cheaper product", they set the MSRP, if people are willing to pay that price then they are "all good". High end GFX cards are a "niche" product, while there is a lot of "prestige" to having the "the fastest GFX card" and it also help support the "premium product" that helps sell middle/low end cards.

Aspects of Premium pricing

• Demand for premium products tends needs to be price inelastic. Consumers need to feel that it has some unique selling point over other goods.
• The ability to sell a good at a premium – may only be short-lived if other firms can respond with similar goods. For example, if Samsung continues to gain a reputation for good quality, Apple may lose its ability to charge a premium for its products.
• Premium pricing requires strong brand loyalty.
• To maintain the ability to charge premium products may require the firm to stay small. For example, many successful brand labels, like Prada, Ted Baker, Dolce & Gabbana may lose their ‘premium’ status if they become mass market.

 

[Stretlow]

Yes and no, that's a bit of an outlier and in a bracket of its own. Mid-range and below is where the real money is made, and AMD have solid offerings there

Fair enough

 

[bigmike20vt]

Do you mind if I ask why you would still go NV?

its in the quote you replied to

the increased performance in Ray Tracing is worth the extra £70 for me. IF the next gen of cards from AMD rival NV for performance AND raytacing then my next card will uite possibly be AMD.... but it will definitely have ray tracing. Whilst not many games support it, those which do look better than without imo.

AMD have baked linux drivers into the Kernel and have "better" or at least did up until a few months back, linux support than NV. Linux on AMD is plug and play. At the time I last looked (sept 19) I believe that this was the state of play. It was certainly much easier to get AMD set up in linux than it was NV at least. A simple google should set you straight on which vendor is more linux friendly.

Some people (not saying your colleague is one of them) will literally say anything at all to make one vendor look superior to the other. Personally their drivers are as bad as each other imo.

That is interesting.... He is definitely not a fanboy, he likes a good bargain like the best of us, however that does not mean he is up to date on his views.... his last AMD card which he hated was some time ago (not sure which card it was but he does not upgrade that often)

£700 is only slightly cheaper than £1200 for a potentially faster card? You guys slay me.

Are you on about the 2080ti? I am not saying your over all logic is wrong........ but I wish people (both sides) could try not to embellish so much.
I dont know what the cheapest 2080ti is but this was the top google hit for cheap 2080ti and it is £950.... which is still a good saving over the £700 you cite so doesn't even invalidate your comment....... (edit... i was ninja'd i should have read full thread 1st )

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/msi-...ddr6-pci-express-graphics-card-gx-34u-ms.html

The question is however is whether or not NV will drop prices even more

 

[DELETED_195422]

Nvidia have no option but to lower prices. If they don't, they will just lose customers to consoles, which will mean lower mid-range/high end sales.

Looking at the stats over on Steam with Nvidia at 80%, it's pathetic. No wonder they are dictating a lot within the PC market.

If prices don't improve (and i mean Maxwell prices or lower), i'll just continue with my backlog until prices get back to acceptable levels.

 

[Blackjack Davy]

Not as technically proficient as you are mate but regarding the market comment, could we not say that AMD were in a similar position in the CPU market not to long back which they have now turned around so is proven to be possible?

Not really comparable, Intel has been behind the curve for some time only pushing out incremental upgrades for inflated prices for years and they've been surprisingly slow to respond in both marketing and mindshare to AMD's breaking of the dam they show every impression of having turned into a dinosaur, whereas Nvidia is anything but they're very very sharp in marketing and mindshare grab and they're ahead technologically too.

 

[D.P.]

But economics dont' really factor here as most people buying a 2080TI have "money to burn" and it's seen as a "premium product" therefore NVIDIA can't ask for a "premium price". There will always be the "high" end, look at cars/motorbikes/av equipment etc, all of these have what are seen as "premium products" that sell for ££££.

NVIDIA don't need to design a "cheaper product", they set the MSRP, if people are willing to pay that price then they are "all good". High end GFX cards are a "niche" product, while there is a lot of "prestige" to having the "the fastest GFX card" and it also help support the "premium product" that helps sell middle/low end cards.

Aspects of Premium pricing

• Demand for premium products tends needs to be price inelastic. Consumers need to feel that it has some unique selling point over other goods.
• The ability to sell a good at a premium – may only be short-lived if other firms can respond with similar goods. For example, if Samsung continues to gain a reputation for good quality, Apple may lose its ability to charge a premium for its products.
• Premium pricing requires strong brand loyalty.
• To maintain the ability to charge premium products may require the firm to stay small. For example, many successful brand labels, like Prada, Ted Baker, Dolce & Gabbana may lose their ‘premium’ status if they become mass market.

Your post is basically agreeing with me, although you are contradicting yourself within it.

But economics dont' really factor here as most people buying a 2080TI have "money to burn"

Eh,, that is pretty much the definition of economics.

it's seen as a "premium product" therefore NVIDIA can't ask for a "premium price".

IF it is seen as a premium product then of course Nvidia can ask a premium price

NVIDIA don't need to design a "cheaper product", they set the MSRP, if people are willing to pay that price then they are "all good"

Exctly, market economics have controlled the price point Nvidia design GPUs at. Nvidia merely sets an MSRP that is acceptable by the market. Nvidia responds to the market, it has no control over the market since a GPU is a luxory and not a necessity.

 

[HEADRAT]

IF it is seen as a premium product then of course Nvidia can ask a premium price

So are you claiming 2080TI is not a premium product?

Nvidia will always sell plenty of their flagship GFX cards to those who want the perceived fastest/best, they will pay an inflated premium. They set the MSRP and there is simply no need for them to reduce that, they will know what margin they want to make on each card, there is simply no need for them to reduce prices when they are selling cards. This isn't helped by the fact that currently their is no competition in that space, AMD don't currently have a card that can compete with the 2080TI so in some ways they have a bit a a captive market.

 

[D.P.]

Not really comparable, Intel has been behind the curve for some time only pushing out incremental upgrades for inflated prices for years and they've been surprisingly slow to respond in both marketing and mindshare to AMD's breaking of the dam they show every impression of having turned into a dinosaur, whereas Nvidia is anything but they're very very sharp in marketing and mindshare grab and they're ahead technologically too.

Not only that but Intel relied heavily on having the most advanced manufacturing process so they could produce faster CPUs on smaller dies for less money. With their 10nm fiasco that blew out the window. Intel were supposed to be on 10nm (the equivalent of TSMC 7nm+) back in 2015. That still hasn't happened.

Nvidia are completely immune to that issue, they can select between Samsung and TSMC and have the same access to manufacturing nodes as AMD, potentially even better access to TSMC (12nm was custom made for Nvidia for example). AMD currently are leverging 7nm to try and reduce their technological deficit with Nvidia, but this is entirely a strategic decision form Nvidia. Nvidia currently enjoy higher yields on a cheaper process while they await for 7nm to mature. This is especially pertinent because TSMC's 7nm+ EUV is actually much cheaper and easier to develop for than the first gen 7nm DUV and also more naturally scales to the full EUV 5nm process.

 

[D.P.]

So are you claiming 2080TI is not a premium product?

Quite the opposite, the 2080iti is a premium product and commands a premium price.

Nvidia will always sell plenty of their flagship GFX cards to those who want the perceived fastest/best, they will pay an inflated premium. They set the MSRP and there is simply no need for them to reduce that, they will know what margin they want to make on each card, there is simply no need for them to reduce prices when they are selling cards. This isn't helped by the fact that currently their is no competition in that space, AMD don't currently have a card that can compete with the 2080TI so in some ways they have a bit a a captive market.

exactly, so Nvidia chooses a price point that is supported by the market. If Nvidia chose a price that the market didn't support then they wouldn't create a profit. If Nvidia charged 100,000USD for a 2080ti no one would buy one, Nvidia can't force the market to change, the market forces Nvidia to set the price it can bear.

 

[HEADRAT]

But they have a premium product with no competition, the market will just “accept” the MSRP they have set.

Where the “market” has little or no choice of a premium product there is no pressure for them to reduce MSRP

https://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-rtx-2060-price-cut-299-usd-tackle-amd-rx-5600-xt/

Here we see NVIDIA change MSRP for mid range card due to competition from AMD, nothing to do with “market” as the 5600xt hasn’t even launched yet.

 

[Panos]

Nvidia have no option but to lower prices. If they don't, they will just lose customers to consoles, which will mean lower mid-range/high end sales.

Looking at the stats over on Steam with Nvidia at 80%, it's pathetic. No wonder they are dictating a lot within the PC market.

If prices don't improve (and i mean Maxwell prices or lower), i'll just continue with my backlog until prices get back to acceptable levels.

Actually NV doesn't plan to lower prices. Why I say that? Because Jensen already started talking down the consoles performance.

 

[Panos]

But they have a premium product with no competition, the market will just “accept” the MSRP they have set.

Where the “market” has little or no choice of a premium product there is no pressure for them to reduce MSRP

https://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-rtx-2060-price-cut-299-usd-tackle-amd-rx-5600-xt/

Here we see NVIDIA change MSRP for mid range card due to competition from AMD, nothing to do with “market” as the 5600xt hasn’t even launched yet.

Actually thats the RTX2060KO card model. I won't be surprised if somehow is been gimped