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*** AMD ThreadRipper ***

Soldato
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IPC should be exactly the same as Ryzen because they all use the same Zen cores. Which is the same as Broadwell, so you can't really go wrong with them.

Threadripper is only there if you actually need the extra cores; and will likely have issues clocking all cores to 4.0Ghz since there's a lot more heat and voltage needed.



Why would anyone buy a i5 for single core which at best is 7% IPC over Ryzen/Broadwell-E when they need the cores?

IPC is part of it, clock speed is another.

Ryzen's clock lower.

So you add the 7% from your example, then you add more for the clock speed difference.

The vast majority of activity on my PC is constrained by per core performance, even a modern browser like chrome which is multiple process friendly, will still allocate only one core to rendering a website or to playing a video. The majority of games I play run only on one core, if I am lucky they will use 2 cores.

But of course I dont encode videos, I dont sit running 7zip all day, I dont play the same AAA titles that keep been benchmarked (the only game I have played that reviewers bench is gta5).

More cores I am fine with as long as its not at the price of per core performance, there is certian things that will always rely on per core performance, not everything can be multithreaded.
 
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Soldato
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IPC is part of it, clock speed is another.

Ryzen's clock lower.

So you add the 7% from your example, then you add more for the clock speed difference.

The vast majority of activity on my PC is constrained by per core performance, even a modern browser like chrome which is multiple process friendly, will still allocate only one core to rendering a website or to playing a video. The majority of games I play run only on one core, if I am lucky they will use 2 cores.

But of course I dont encode videos, I dont sit running 7zip all day, I dont play the same AAA titles that keep been benchmarked (the only game I have played that reviewers bench is gta5).

More cores I am fine with as long as its not at the price of per core performance, there is certian things that will always rely on per core performance, not everything can be multithreaded.

I have no problem running chrome with 100 tabs on an ancient IB Core i7 which is not overclocked,and TBH plenty of games me and my mates run are Indie titles - just because they use one or two threads does not mean they need a 5GHZ Core i7 to run them.

Even games like Sins of a Solar Empire which is only limited to one or two cores still has crap performance on a Haswell CPU,let alone my mates SKL Core i7 since by the time you come to a game which has been running at 12+ hours,it makes no real difference to playability if you are getting 10 FPS or 15FPS.

Planetside 2 is another one - its massively CPU limited too,but where it counts the servers are the main problem,just like with EVE during large battles where they use time dilation. Even people on here have upgraded to a SKL Core i7 from an earlier one and still during large battles performance could be meh in PS2.

No doubt some games due respond well to the latest Intel CPUs(FO4,but it seems more down to memory bandwidth I suspect),but plenty of games very limited by single core performance also have laws of diminishing returns even with newer hardware.
 
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Deleted member 66701

D

Deleted member 66701

I've just started collecting bits for a thread ripper build - first up is 32gb of 3200mhz quad channel mem.
 
Soldato
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Soldato
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Going by AMD's past practises, it's possible that whichever Zen comes out in 2020 (Zen 3 or 4) will have both a DDR4 and DDR5 memory controller and be compatible with both AM4 and AM5 sockets. Not sure if it'll be physically possible but I bet they'll try.
I wasn't aware that was possible. Guessing you would buy which ever mobo had the chipset for DDR ram type you needed?
 
Soldato
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Soldato
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It's not a few months, Zen for desktop and server was known to be coming in this time frame for the past two + years, Intel will absolutely have known about it for the last 2-3 years. These chips have been sampling for over 12 months with some information going to partners before that time so they could plan and optimise software for testing of samples. information gets out, there is even little chance Intel didn't have their hands on a few chips through big partners who had themselves some EPYC samples and shared them.

The problem here is Intel is making a massive chip, it's at the edge of feasible production size, they can't have 128pci-e, because they can't physically make a bigger die while having remotely useful volume. AMD have been building towards a interposer/mcm style interconnect for the past 10 years. They made their first interposer test chip in 2011 with I believe the first test HBM chips.

The sole reason AMD has more pci-e, more bandwidth/memory channels, higher memory capacity and more cores is the multichip design. This wasn't just a gambit, all the work AMD has done in the past decade has been building towards this. Regardless of Bulldozer, their intention was to make a chip akin to Zen, something with a fabric that allows more small dies to work together when the technology became feasible. Intel is seemingly years out from such a design and they've had years of warning that AMD would be able to do this, AMD hasn't been quiet or secretive about their work on a fabric, interposers or their intention for GPUs to go more smaller cores rather than one large die and much of the industry is on the same page(though several years behind on the implementation) as it's seen as the way forward with process node shrinks being harder and further between.

If we say AMD had a 6 core design with 1 memory channel and 20pci-e and it was 150mm^2 and this more closely lined up with intel in terms of a 24 core, 4 memory channel ~80 pci-e lane chip. Lets say Intel's chip is 550mm^2. AMD can easily add the extra memory channel, the extra 2 cores and the extra 12 pci-e per chip because it only becomes a 195mm^2 chip, but for Intel to add the same amount, roughly 180mm^2 in die space their chip becomes 750mm^2. 195mm^2 still increases cost of manufacture for AMD by what, near enough 30%, but yields at 195 vs 155 will be near enough the same while yields of 550 vs 750 are going to change significantly. There is also simply the maximum reticle size of the process, I'm not sure Intel actually list theirs anywhere but Glofo's 14nm is 600mm^2 while Glofo's 7nm will be 700mm^2. Intel is going to be literally butting up against both maximum die size that makes sense due to yields and the maximum they can actually achieve.

This is also with AMD on a less dense process, with Zen 2 vs whatever Intel have next AMD will have a seemingly on par or even better process. Many dies vs one die is winning for AMD with a fairly hefty process disadvantage, when the processes are on par if anything the gap between Zen 2 and the successor to Skylake-SP could be even bigger. If AMD are winning enough business to be financially viable, the extra die space available with 7nm could make AMD add a vastly more lanes to their interconnect link to start going after 4 and 8 way systems, though the volume of them and the requirement of an extra die to tape out might make it not all that worthwhile, those extra links would be a complete waste of die space on every other platform. But that is the good thing about infinity fabric, it's completely scaleable as it was designed to just put in as much as you want or need.

Intel knew what was coming, they simply don't have the ability to make bigger chips than they are right now and they don't have a strategy for making multiple dies work together as seamlessly as AMD. At this point I'd be very surprised if Intel can come up with something matching AMD on i/o, bandwidth and core count till at least Zen 3 time frame and a couple of years from now.

That is a good point, I hadn't considered if it was physically possible for intel to compete on PCIE lanes. Is one of the reasons for this because AMD implementation of PCIE is more efficient than Intel?
 
Caporegime
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If AMD release 16 core at a competitive price and it clocks to ~4ghz like Ryzen they'll pretty much kill off Intel for a long while, the only way Intel are going to be able to compete is either with a price war or by making their cores much much faster and having a massive IPC advantage like they did against Bulldozer/Piledriver. Interesting times.
 
Soldato
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If AMD release 16 core at a competitive price and it clocks to ~4ghz like Ryzen they'll pretty much kill off Intel for a long while, the only way Intel are going to be able to compete is either with a price war or by making their cores much much faster and having a massive IPC adavantage like they did against Bulldozer/Piledriver. Interesting times.
Price has been confirmed to be "extremely" competitive. The 16 core is confirmed to boost to 4GHz. The real question is if it can do it on all cores.

Just saying
 
Caporegime
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Will new coolers be needed or is the platform AM4 compatible? sorry I've not really payed much attention.

I assume if a processor can boost to 4ghz then it will do it on all cores providing motherboard power delivery or heat isn't an issue, unless they are using some kind of "favoured core" for boosting like Intel with Skylake-X.
 
Associate
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Price has been confirmed to be "extremely" competitive. The 16 core is confirmed to boost to 4GHz. The real question is if it can do it on all cores.

Just saying

If you can overclock to all core 4Ghz on a 16 core chip that would be amazing, interesting/bad times for Intel if that comes to pass.
 
Soldato
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Will new coolers be needed or is the platform AM4 compatible? sorry I've not really payed much attention.

I assume if a processor can boost to 4ghz then it will do it on all cores providing motherboard power delivery or heat isn't an issue, unless they are using some kind of "favoured core" for boosting like Intel with Skylake-X.
Judgingby the size of the heatspreader, I think you will need a threadripper specific cooler.
 
Associate
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If AMD release 16 core at a competitive price and it clocks to ~4ghz like Ryzen they'll pretty much kill off Intel for a long while, the only way Intel are going to be able to compete is either with a price war or by making their cores much much faster and having a massive IPC advantage like they did against Bulldozer/Piledriver. Interesting times.

Also consider AMD should get a ~20%+ clockspeed boost on 7nmLP. Which could launch products as soon as Q3 2018 (though probably later).

So Intel has no easy solutions.
 
Soldato
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Will new coolers be needed or is the platform AM4 compatible? sorry I've not really payed much attention.

I assume if a processor can boost to 4ghz then it will do it on all cores providing motherboard power delivery or heat isn't an issue, unless they are using some kind of "favoured core" for boosting like Intel with Skylake-X.

No given the size of the CPU you need different cooler. But it seems the 1950X, and possibly the 1920X, are shipped with AIO. So it will be ready on the go from first day.
To understand why look at the size difference

AMD-Threadripper-and-Ryzen-APU.jpg
 
Man of Honour
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Also consider AMD should get a ~20%+ clockspeed boost on 7nmLP. Which could launch products as soon as Q3 2018 (though probably later).

So Intel has no easy solutions.

Supposedly Intel's 10nm should be going into volume production very soon with the first products towards the end of the year and desktop parts around the end of the year which on paper would give Intel around a year advantage on 10nm. AFAIK performance wise there is generally parity between the two nodes with IBM's 7nm being a bit easier to design products for.
 
Soldato
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If you can overclock to all core 4Ghz on a 16 core chip that would be amazing, interesting/bad times for Intel if that comes to pass.

Given that that already Alienware states that their Threadripper system will be OCed, imho it can do 4Ghz on all cores. Rumour is that because is newer Zen revision they can hit 4.2 also.

AMD wouldn't advertised that it can do 4Ghz on XFR (aka 2 x 2 = 4 cores) with stock speeds, if wasn't possible to overclock all cores to that at least.
The 1800X can do it, and 1950X isn't that different than 2 1800X. And because is not a single die but 2 with big space between them, if cooled sufficiently they will deliver.

What matters is the power delivery of the board. Cheap boards with single 8 pin extra, might fail and those with 8+8 be far better boards.
 
Soldato
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Supposedly Intel's 10nm should be going into volume production very soon with the first products towards the end of the year and desktop parts around the end of the year which on paper would give Intel around a year advantage on 10nm. AFAIK performance wise there is generally parity between the two nodes with IBM's 7nm being a bit easier to design products for.

If correct 10nm intel isn't due until end of 2018-start 2019. Coffee Lake is 14nm with K edition coming start 2018, and laptop this year.
 
Man of Honour
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If correct 10nm intel isn't due until end of 2018-start 2019. Coffee Lake is 14nm with K edition coming start 2018, and laptop this year.

Well Intel is claiming Cannon Lake is going to production and Ice Lake has been taped out - which would put them on target if true.
 
Caporegime
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A year headstart is stretching it, as with Broadwell they dropped the desktop version of their first 10nm chips due to yields, temp/heat/power issues so desktop looks like it won't come till mid/late 2018 and the places AMD is competing the most right now and really the higher margin and most important segments for AMD are higher end mainstream desktop, ie 8+ cores on mainstream and HEDT and server, AMD looks like they'll have 7nm chips around the same time or even before Intel has 10nm chips in the same area. How long is the lag between Intel putting normal desktop chips on a process then the server/HEDT versions launching? If we're talking August-December 2018 for hexcore 10nm apus from Intel then we're probably looking at mid 2019 for Skylake-X/SP replacements which AMD should have 7nm chips out by then.

Then unlike Broadwell and early skylake which had no competition from AMD at all except 28nm 5 year old architecture APUs from AMD, AMD will still have 14nm dramatically more competitive and likely far far faster GPU side chips available as Intel launches the new desktop and mobile 10nm chips. So while when Broadwell mobile launched it was far far beyond the closest chips from AMD, Cannonlake won't have that same advantage and will in fact likely be significantly behind many AMD APU benchmarks.

Currently Intel is also saying that the first iteration of 10nm isn't even as good as 14nm ++.
http://techreport.com/review/31660/intel-defends-its-process-technology-leadership-at-14nm-and-10nm

Graph a ways down with Intel saying 14nm ++ having straight up better transistor performance than 10nm, so 10nm like 14nm at first should be offering a reduction in clock speeds for probably the first 18 months compared to 14nm, this is another reason for Intel delaying desktop, without a significant architecture jump forwards then 5-10% lower clock speeds will mean 10nm chips that use less power but aren't actually any faster than Kaby/Coffeelake chips.
 
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