AMD to unveil Zen 4 CPUs at CES 2022

gpuerrilla · 30 Dec 2021 at 21:59

jigger said:
Intel aren’t anymore competitive than they have been for last two years. It’s good Intel are entering the graphics cards market though. They might offer something decent with the 35watt parts.

Yep, agree - cpu's we seem to have choice in so far as you wont go wrong whichever you select, then the GPU space should intel undercut largely enough, hope the other two come down. However intel rather late to that party being halfway through the gen cycle but I hear they plan on releasing every 12 months so it could slot in nicely for end of 2022!

Twinz · 30 Dec 2021 at 23:53

jigger said:
Intel aren’t anymore competitive than they have been for last two years. It’s good Intel are entering the graphics cards market though. They might offer something decent with the 35watt parts.

While the gap is similar to before, they are on top now and they came up with a new approach (new to the desktop market at least) to get there.

Better still, they are offering more performance than AMD and offering it for less money.

This is new.

My hope is that AMD strikes back in kind and the two companies battle for our money. Some people think AMD doesn't have to bother "because market share". They can play it that way if they choose....I will just make different choices with my money going forward.

jigger · 31 Dec 2021 at 00:19

Twinz said:
While the gap is similar to before, they are on top now and they came up with a new approach (new to the desktop market at least) to get there.

Better still, they are offering more performance than AMD and offering it for less money.

This is new.

My hope is that AMD strikes back in kind and the two companies battle for our money. Some people think AMD doesn't have to bother "because market share". They can play it that way if they choose....I will just make different choices with my money going forward.

Intel can’t even get close to AMD. A couple of the 12th gen parts are Ok.

Twinz · 31 Dec 2021 at 00:21

jigger said:
Intel can’t even get close to AMD. A couple of the 12th gen parts are Ok.

WTF are you smoking?

jigger · 31 Dec 2021 at 00:25

Twinz said:
WTF are you smoking?

Not what you and Joxen are smoking.

Twinz · 31 Dec 2021 at 00:43

jigger said:
Not what you and Joxen are smoking.

The benchmarks speak for themselves. - even if you don't want to listen.

jigger · 31 Dec 2021 at 00:52

Twinz said:
The benchmarks speak for themselves. - even if you don't want to listen.

Intel on top lol. Intel have few OK chips that might see a few months of OK sales.

Seriously. Intel on top…

Twinz · 31 Dec 2021 at 00:58

jigger said:
Seriously. Intel on top…

Yes. Seriously. Have look:

jigger · 31 Dec 2021 at 01:09

I get it, AMD are out selling Nvidia and Intel because they have better products. It’s going to be OK though.

Curlyriff · 31 Dec 2021 at 01:34

jigger said:
Intel on top lol. Intel have few OK chips that might see a few months of OK sales.

Seriously. Intel on top…

Just stop now. I mean seriously, yeah AMD had excellent run for 12 months. But Intel at moment are indeed on top in terms of performance and price to performance on all three chips they dropped.

That is the discussion. Not sales, not consumer purchasing, purely about the chips and their performance.

Just because something outsells another doesn't mean it is generally a better product. Betamax for instance was the superior tech to VHS, guess what we got?

easyrider · 31 Dec 2021 at 02:49

Curlyriff said:
Just stop now. I mean seriously, yeah AMD had excellent run for 12 months. But Intel at moment are indeed on top in terms of performance and price to performance on all three chips they dropped.

That is the discussion. Not sales, not consumer purchasing, purely about the chips and their performance.

Just because something outsells another doesn't mean it is generally a better product. Betamax for instance was the superior tech to VHS, guess what we got?

I’m back….wut?

LePhuronn · 31 Dec 2021 at 02:58

The point is a good 12th gen doesn't mean Intel are back on top, far from it. Right now they hold the performance crown sure, but it's not scalable. Raptor Lake isn't going to see that much of an uplift next year because it's merely a refinement of what's already out, and yet Zen 4 is pipped to be a significant step forward about the same time. Even now, the V cache refresh has only shown a 15% improvement at a locked clock and a handful of games, but that 15% is enough to topple the 12900K, returning the overall e-peen performance crown to AMD after a mere couple of months.

Intel's 10nm SuperFin was supposed to be a big step in process, and yet here we are again with a design that can't scale and requires stupid amounts of power and cooling to claim top spot. AMD, on the other hand, gain 15% performance just by slapping a bit of cache atop an existing design.

Twinz · 31 Dec 2021 at 03:10

LePhuronn said:
The point is a good 12th gen doesn't mean Intel are back on top, far from it. Right now they hold the performance crown sure, but it's not scalable.

On an enthusiast forum, I would expect the performance crown to define the "top". **Particularly** when outperforming the competition for less money.

Raptor Lake isn't going to see that much of an uplift next year because it's merely a refinement of what's already out, and yet Zen 4 is pipped to be a significant step forward about the same time.

*Then* Intel would no longer be on top.

Even now, the V cache refresh has only shown a 15% improvement at a locked clock and a handful of games, but that 15% is enough to topple the 12900K, returning the overall e-peen performance crown to AMD after a mere couple of months.

You can argue that it won't last, but denying the current reality is just silly. More importantly, we don't know why the prototype was clocked so low. A 15% uplift only outperforms the 12900k if that 15% is added on top of the original full-clock-speed performance. We have not seen that yet. The 15% uplift was one gimped CPU over another gimped CPU.

Intel's 10nm SuperFin was supposed to be a big step in process, and yet here we are again with a design that can't scale and requires stupid amounts of power and cooling to claim top spot. AMD, on the other hand, gain 15% performance just by slapping a bit of cache atop an existing design.

Again, *if* they can "slap a bit of cache" *without losing too much clock speed.

I hope AMD do get back on top....And then I hope Intel takes it back...and then AMD etc etc

Competition will bring us more performance at the best possible price points. These companies need to go after each other like they mean it. It will benefit us.

Cromulent · 31 Dec 2021 at 03:16

My needs mean I only have AMD as a choice because Intel has nothing that can compete with Threadripper or Threadripper Pro. I mean, they are not even close, so I'm just waiting for Zen 3 Threadripper or Threadripper Pro.

Twinz · 31 Dec 2021 at 03:18

Cromulent said:
My needs mean I only have AMD as a choice because Intel has nothing that can compete with Threadripper or Threadripper Pro. I mean, they are not even close, so I'm just waiting for Zen 3 Threadripper or Threadripper Pro.

This is a valid point. Intel still lacks an answer in the prosumer space.

LePhuronn · 31 Dec 2021 at 03:40

Twinz said:
On an enthusiast forum, I would expect the performance crown to define the "top". **Particularly** when outperforming the competition for less money.

On an enthusiast forum, I wouldn't expect such short-sighted viewpoints and a near bloody-mindedness to exist and discuss solely the now. And what's this outperform for less money thing everybody's going on about? Last time I checked an Alder Lake system cost a chunk more than a Ryzen 5000 system. Having a CPU a couple bucks cheaper than the competition means diddly-squat if the overall system costs more.

Twinz said:
You can argue that it won't last, but denying the current reality is just silly.

I'm not denying anything. The current reality is Intel have zero HEDT presence with no answer to AMD in the future, no answer to AMD in server and enterprise and losing market share hand over fist, competitive advantage in laptop totally consumed. Yet amongst all that, Intel beating an 18 month old competitor in 720p gaming and a couple of synthetics with a power-hungry, unsustainable CPU design that will not last the 2+ years it needs to suddenly means Intel are back on top? Yeah, OK. Intel have some marketing wins in the low-value niche that is enthusiast desktop and nothing else. THAT is the current reality.

I don't care about here and now, I care about bigger picture stuff. I have a mod project planned for around my birthday next year and truth be told it'll probably be a 12400F and a midrange Arc GPU for some serious value for money. But that's a one-off system, not an investment. Right now there is nothing coming out of Intel CPU-wise that looks worthy of investment.

Enjoy your Alder Lake graphs for some short-term crowing about Intel, let's see if they can do it again with Raptor Lake and Meteor Lake and Lunar Lake before any claims of "Intel are on top" truly hold water. Right now it's a one-off with nothing but another slapping coming next year.

Curlyriff · 31 Dec 2021 at 06:41

The discussion was very much about desktop parts here so not about HEDT or server market.
Ryzen 5000 series is 14 months old not 18 months, Intel parts are 2 months old meaning it is competing against a 12 month product.
18 months would certainly be the time frame for AMD to compete with themselves with the vCache chips they releasing soon(ish)
Alderlake with the 12600k, 12700k and 12900k for about 80% of all benchmarks, games or real world software they are winning out as per plenty of evidence shown
The CPUs (until today looking at AMD price drops available) have been significantly cheaper, not a few bucks. It was £40 more for a 5800x over a 12700k and £170 more for the 5900x
With those price differences a 12700k with z690 mobo was still cheaper than a 5900x with B550 board and newer platform

So yeah the point is currently Intel has been shown to be over the last 2 months the better price to performance CPU wise and for competing products the 12700k to 5900x even with mobo was cheaper by £40-£50.

It being a one off and the time frame doesn't take away what it is. It has clearly driven AMD pricing down cause you can get a 5800x for £295 and 5900x for £420. Add that the 12700k is up £365 means that currently;

5800x, £295 + mobo, £90 (B550) = £385
5900x, £420 + mobo, £90 (B550) = £510
12700k, £365 + mobo, £185 (z690) = £550

So yeah that has shifted since 2 days ago. When the B660 boards drop so a mobo is also £90 for Intel compared to £185 then the 12700k will be back to being the better price to performance unless AMD drop their prices again to compete with Intel, otherwise we will have 12 months of Intel on top for the price to performance.

g67575 · 31 Dec 2021 at 08:27

I agree, but I think the 12700 (locked) + B660 will the sweet spot for price/performance. But then, we've also got Zen3D coming.

q974739 · 31 Dec 2021 at 08:35

Curlyriff said:
The CPUs (until today looking at AMD price drops available) have been significantly cheaper, not a few bucks. It was £40 more for a 5800x over a 12700k and £170 more for the 5900x

With those price differences a 12700k with z690 mobo was still cheaper than a 5900x with B550 board and newer platform

So yeah the point is currently Intel has been shown to be over the last 2 months the better price to performance CPU wise and for competing products the 12700k to 5900x even with mobo was cheaper by £40-£50.

One additional factor you've missed. If you have a compatible AMD motherboard, you don't need to rebuild your entire system - it's a drop in upgrade.

As an example - I was forced to build a new system (because lightning!) During the component crunch last year. Worst possible time. Resorted to a 3600 and a plain 2060, as the only bits I could get without weep-into-porridge levels of price. AMD chosen, despite being more expensive and not quite as good, because the 550 motherboard could take a 5x00 later - and maybe the next chip as well.

So the value comparison for me - and likely many others - is AMD chip Vs Whole System Build. And a couple of hours building, and inevitable small cuts.

Fully agree that it looks like that Intel win on many grounds (likely not VMs, heat) - but the starting point of "value" can be weird. It's possible that some posters are perhaps factoring that "free" motherboard in their internal maths, without thought?

tommoT.Striker · 31 Dec 2021 at 08:48

Cromulent said:
My needs mean I only have AMD as a choice because Intel has nothing that can compete with Threadripper or Threadripper Pro. I mean, they are not even close, so I'm just waiting for Zen 3 Threadripper or Threadripper Pro.

Same position. Kinda ****** AMD have almost abandoned TRX40 platform after one generation, shame that because they know post 16 cores (whether AMD or Intel) they have no rivals so AMD think they won't need to release a new product. Only looks like Threadripper Pro will see Zen 3, and that's a very expensive platform. Would have considered Intel...maybe

, but doesn't look like they're going to be competing in HEDT anytime soon. Intel CEO was bullish about sapphire rapids but scaling those cores to HEDT's higher clock speeds looking really challenging.