AMD Zen 2 (Ryzen 3000) - *** NO COMPETITOR HINTING ***

[harney]

Wait for some reviews testing old chipsets.

If someone bought a cheap AM4 board with a pound shop VRM they can't expect to get the same performance as a high end board / new board, even a 2700X is constrained in low end boards by throttling VRM's and suboptimal memory support etc.
Apart for thermal throttle on cheap VRM's, performance gap will be placebo level. E.g. you'll see it in a bench mark but not when gaming or using productivity apps unless you're timing them with a stop watch.

The mid range Z570 6 layer boards will support better memory overclock than cheaper X570 4 layer and 4 layer B450/X470, no big surprise there. You may need to drop the Dram overclock a couple of hundred Mhz like you always have on cheaper boards vs what a new board will reach. A few hundred Mhz will be placebo levels.

I don't see what all the noise is about, high end boards allow a small margin of extra performacne to be squezed out of the same chip, it's always been this way.

The 3xxx series will still give you IPC increase and standard boost clocks, you may just be few % down on max boost (100hz is ~2%) and a little down in memory OC. No different to all other platforms. It's still a good step up from 2xxx

just to add

I bought 2 x b350 tomahawks aka pound shop vrms back on release as i needed legacy pci for RME audio cards and a xonar cards both running with the 1700's
Both running with b die c14 3200 ram.. both builds ran off the bat with 1st rev bios ...

i have since upgraded one of them to a 2700x with an offset of -0.0125v been running fine for 4 months now ..Vrm is cooled by a fan and i still get max 4.35Ghz boosts and 4ghz all core ...

i also tested bench marked the same 2700x with same gpu and ram in a x470 with good quality M&S kind vrms and got same scores and again same boosts ..yes vrms ran cooler but no good to me as i need legacy pci ..yes i could use a converter pcie to pci board in a x470 or B450 but had issues with them in the past ..

All i am saying is that since release these b350 tomahawk boards have been running fine with 8 cores since 2017 ..they have done a lot of audio & video editing work and gaming too ... i did dabble with memory oc got to 3466 with safe settings with the mem calc but was always on the back of my mind if it was going to crash while in a audio session or editing ect so i just leave them set at 3200 c14 ..

i am so tempted to try a 3700x in one of my builds just so pound shop VRM's get some love

so my point is even cheap vrm's work if there cooled correctly

 

[beany_bot]

Does anyone else think the 3800x might clock higher than the 3900x and therefore be the better gamer?

 

[StriderX]

Does anyone else think the 3800x might clock higher than the 3900x and therefore be the better gamer?

It might, but the extra cache on the 3900x will likely make that redundant.

 

[s6545]

I was gonna get a used x470 board from Amazon.co.uk, but theres no way to flash the BIOS without a cpu on most x470 boards.

EDIT - There might be a way, but why take the risk?

 

[Troezar]

No, Threadripper is HEDT. Ryzen 3000 is mainstream. Doesn't matter how many cores it has, Ryzen 3000 is mainstream. HEDT platforms have a boat load more PCIe lanes and quad channel RAM (at least) as a major differentiator. X570 has none of these things and therefore it is not HEDT.

Server grade PCBs and PCIe retimers will of course bump the cost of the boards up, but nowhere near this level.

Seems like an Nvidia Titan trick. Add a new tier and up the prices. Everyone is premium these days, at least on price!

 

[StriderX]

No, Threadripper is HEDT. Ryzen 3000 is mainstream. Doesn't matter how many cores it has, Ryzen 3000 is mainstream. HEDT platforms have a boat load more PCIe lanes and quad channel RAM (at least) as a major differentiator. X570 has none of these things and therefore it is not HEDT.

Server grade PCBs and PCIe retimers will of course bump the cost of the boards up, but nowhere near this level.

It might officially be Mainstream, but lets be honest, it's functionally a poverty class HEDT until TR and EPYC come out.

 

[robfosters]

It might officially be Mainstream, but lets be honest, it's functionally a poverty class HEDT until TR and EPYC come out.

It’s almost a new class. I hereby invent HEMDT - Hugh End Mainstream Desktop

 

[carbide]

the 3600x looks close to par with a factory clocked 8700k/9700k! I can't believe how people are starting to look disappointed with this launch!

Even in the latest slides, AMD themselves glossed over in their narration that what they're showing is that even the 3900x isn't quite up to scratch with the 9900k SC performance. But at least they weren't trying to hype our expectations that this new launch was going to dominate current gen coffee lake in every dimension.

Thermals, efficiency, multi core performance, price point, they've nailed it, whatever motherboard you put it on.

I think we've all jumped on the hype train if we thought a manufacturer was going to leapfrog its competitor at a lower price point regardless of whether they could or not

 

[LePhuronn]

It might officially be Mainstream, but lets be honest, it's functionally a poverty class HEDT until TR and EPYC come out.

True, but that's going to make X499 disgustingly expensive.

Right now, the X399 Zenith Extreme Alpha is about £500. How much more will the X499 equivalent cost when it has a server PCB and PCIe retimers? Everybody laughed at the ludicrous Dominus Extreme and the Gigabyte equivalent, but I can see X499 boards getting close to these prices.

For all the gloriousness that is Zen 2, motherboard manufacturers might have gone ****** it for AMD with this insanity.

 

[4K8KW10]

True, but that's going to make X499 disgustingly expensive.

Right now, the X399 Zenith Extreme Alpha is about £500. How much more will the X499 equivalent cost when it has a server PCB and PCIe retimers? Everybody laughed at the ludicrous Dominus Extreme and the Gigabyte equivalent, but I can see X499 boards getting close to these prices.

For all the gloriousness that is Zen 2, motherboard manufacturers might have gone ****** it for AMD with this insanity.

Wait to see boards with PCIe 5.0, then it will be true hell

 

[carbide]

moving onto more interesting topics, hypothetically speaking, and asking for a friend...

x570 aorus master / CH8 Hero

they're looking like the same price point. I'm They're thinking, other than the extrra m.2 on the master, it comes down to 'what bios'

thoughts?!

 

[s6545]

I wonder if the 3700X or 3800 max clocks will be more restricted by the stock cooler, or the quality of the chips? If the latter, silicon lottery chips could be worth a look.

 

[DarkHorizon472]

I wonder if the 3700X or 3800 max clocks will be more restricted by the stock cooler, or the quality of the chips? If the latter, silicon lottery chips could be worth a look.

Good question, on my 1700 while fine up to 3.7Ghz the stock cooler struggled after that. The Noctua NH-U12S I replaced it with dropped load temps by over 10c compared to the stock cooler. To be fair the stock cooler is fine for less extreme overclocking and has no issues at stock speeds.

 

[smilingcrow]

Wait to see boards with PCIe 5.0, then it will be true hell

Assuming it comes to the desktop anytime soon.
PCIe 4.0 is already a pointless extra expense for the majority on desktop so hopefully lessons will be learned.
But of course the marketing depts will twist arms so we get pointless overpriced nonsense just because it has bigger numbers.

 

[decto]

just to add

I bought 2 x b350 tomahawks aka pound shop vrms back on release as i needed legacy pci for RME audio cards and a xonar cards both running with the 1700's
Both running with b die c14 3200 ram.. both builds ran off the bat with 1st rev bios ...

i have since upgraded one of them to a 2700x with an offset of -0.0125v been running fine for 4 months now ..Vrm is cooled by a fan and i still get max 4.35Ghz boosts and 4ghz all core ...

i also tested bench marked the same 2700x with same gpu and ram in a x470 with good quality M&S kind vrms and got same scores and again same boosts ..yes vrms ran cooler but no good to me as i need legacy pci ..yes i could use a converter pcie to pci board in a x470 or B450 but had issues with them in the past ..

All i am saying is that since release these b350 tomahawk boards have been running fine with 8 cores since 2017 ..they have done a lot of audio & video editing work and gaming too ... i did dabble with memory oc got to 3466 with safe settings with the mem calc but was always on the back of my mind if it was going to crash while in a audio session or editing ect so i just leave them set at 3200 c14 ..

i am so tempted to try a 3700x in one of my builds just so pound shop VRM's get some love

so my point is even cheap vrm's work if there cooled correctly

I don't think the B350 Tomahawk is in with the worst offenders for VRM, especially with some directed cooling effort.
With a 3900X or 3950X I'd expect to see some impact though... there is only so much a 4 phase can give

Some B450 / X470 boards support overboost which may give a few % extra and those with better trace layouts may have slightly better memory OC but it's the same old issue, the outlay doesn't match the returns. Fine if you have deep pockets and must have the best, but nothing to lose sleep over for the rest of us.

You support my point nicely though, at this end of the market, as long as you have BIOS support, you get the majority of the performance and bargain prices.
Yes a shiny X570 may give you a little extra but in most cases the cash is better invested elsewhere, usually in the GPU.
With a 12 or 16 core I think it would be wise to invest in a high end X470 (£200-£250) or at least mid range X570 (£250-£300) if you're going to run high end cooling and want to push regular high workload maximising the full boost but CPU's up to the 3800X should if anything take less power than the 2700X, so if a 2700X is not causing an issue, the 3600 - 3800X is going to be just fine. Take the FPS counter out of the corner and you'll never know the difference.

The killer for AMD will be if the 3600-3700X parts are snapping at the heels of Intel but at significantly lower cost when paired with a B450 motherboard. I think we're in for a real chance of this and if we can get 90-95% of OC 9900K performance in games at near half the cost then AMD will kill it.

 

[decto]

I wonder if the 3700X or 3800 max clocks will be more restricted by the stock cooler, or the quality of the chips? If the latter, silicon lottery chips could be worth a look.

200Mhz is ~ 5%, that's probably the maximum SL can give over the median unless you get a real stinker. Would you really notice that without a benchmark?

Yes they will be restricted by the stock cooler, better cooling = > boost (to a point)

 

[azazl187]

Blankest statement ever. Gaming at 1080p, 1440p, 4k, what refresh rate? What price is the Intel gaming PC? You can't just say "Intel are still the king of gaming" as there are far too many variables, just screams fan boy.

I said it like I was disappointed. At all resolutions. It still has the frames over AMD.

I was rather hoping it wouldnt be the case as I want to see Intel price drops

 

[carbide]

I wonder if the 3700X or 3800 max clocks will be more restricted by the stock cooler, or the quality of the chips? If the latter, silicon lottery chips could be worth a look.

I think your money would be better spent with a standard chip & D15/D15S. The way PBO seems to work, you'll get more, price/performance wise with the better cooler.

I have a D15S on my 4790k. A chip notorious for it's heat output, bit like the 9900k overclocked today. I actually get better temps at a lower noise output than the H100i it replaced.

 

[ricid]

Edit - I'm an idiot that doesnt read posts to the end

 

[carbide]

I said it like I was disappointed. At all resolutions. It still has the frames over AMD.

I was rather hoping it wouldnt be the case as I want to see Intel price drops

But at what cost? I mean, I considered my 4790k a better chip than than the 2700x, as it posted better fps in most games still, look at the GN reviews even as far as the 9900k review and you can see it was the last chip above the 2700x, until it ran out of threads. some of the latest titles that will eat up 8 cores+ (even wildlands form... 2017?) my i7 will crash from 100+ down to the mid 60s.

As far as I see it, even SC performance around the intel 7th/8th gen would be really good, while offering class leading MC performance, all for less than an ~8700k