*** AMD "Zen" thread (inc AM4/APU discussion) ***

[Uriel]

Don't know if this has been posted, but Guru3d are claiming there was a hidden message in the CanardPC article:
http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/amd-ryzen-processors-reach-5-ghz-on-air.html

Spoiler

5GHz on air...

 

[Bonjour]

I doubt that very much tbh. Especially with 3.4GHz base. Surely they'd have a higher base clock if it clocked highly so easily.

 

[SiDeards73]

Interesting, I read a tweet from Canardpc which had a photo of their march edition magazine and had a binary message also in the page and this one stated "Intel=AMD GPU" but what's equally interesting is they were asking Dresden boy if it was a truthful message..

https://twitter.com/m_BoMbY/status/814188842827780096

Seems they called that collaboration early also, maybe there's some truth in the rumours? Also word is most reviewers have had A0 samples and AND have refined them to A2 now, so if the chip Canardpc had was A0 can only imagine how much better an A2 sample is now

 

[eddiew]

I don't think the cost of a different mounting bracket (either free from manufacturer or for something like a tenner) is really a consideration for the market segment you are talking about.

Depends, I can't find my cooler for sale anywhere so I assume it's end-of-life... so I have no idea whether there will be any option to fit it to a future AMD board :/ From what I've heard, the new Intels will be hole-compatible and it'll be fine with them.

 

[eddiew]

Spoiler

5GHz on air...

Sounds like exactly what people would be googling

 

[SiDeards73]

Depends, I can't find my cooler for sale anywhere so I assume it's end-of-life... so I have no idea whether there will be any option to fit it to a future AMD board :/ From what I've heard, the new Intels will be hole-compatible and it'll be fine with them.

AM4 is a new mobo / socket etc, expect most coolers to need a modified bracket.

What CPU cooler do you have? you can always flog it on the bay or the MM here, someone will want it if its decent, try emailing the manufacturer direct and asking them if they are planning an AM4 bracket kit etc?

I have an Antec Kuhler 950 AIO and a Phanteks CPU Cooler which i will keep, the Phanteks i should be able to get a bracket for i reckon, not so sure on the Antec tho, however im keeping that on the 4770k for my kids anyhow so its a non issue.

Try checking the manufacturer first anyhow, quite a lot of them will either hand out free mounting kits or sell them for a small fee.

 

[Uriel]

I doubt that very much tbh. Especially with 3.4GHz base. Surely they'd have a higher base clock if it clocked highly so easily.

Dunno - maybe it's 3.4GHz base, 4.something high on turbo.

That would be a very handy chip if it would do 3.4 if 8 cores are utilised but well over 4 if only half of them are getting used.

 

[h4rm0ny]

I'm honestly not sure if I'm missing something in this. What's the significance of the fact an i7 6900K can approximate the same time as Ryzen 8/16? All that tells me is that Ryzen appears to have Broadwell-E IPC (even without turbo, which I assume everyone here left enabled on their 6900s?). That being the case, if Ryzen is less than £1,000 then it's winner winner chicken dinner?

I may have taken the wrong end of the stick but some of the posts seem to be 'Ah but look, my 6900K gets the same(ish) time as Ryzen'. Well, yeah... but it's a £1,000 CPU, and shouldn't it rather be 'Holy crap AMD are finally matching Intel's top desktop chip, and at 90W TDP instead of 140W'? As I said, I may be missing the point.

That's how I read it too. If AMD have produced a chip that even reaches the general area of 6900 then that's a stunning result. People who suddenly create their own criteria of "does it beat it?" are the ones who, imho, are missing the point.

If the performance from Blender is anything to go by, and the SR7 clocked up to 5Ghz, that would be game changing.

From what I've been hearing, though, the reality is not near that...

Reality is not going to be near 5GHz, no. Nor is any sane person's expectations.

5GHz? Beating 6900? Where are all these criteria for success coming from?

 

[h4rm0ny]

I was also under the impression that memory overclocking doesn't really give any spectacular results in gaming? Am I mistaken? Do you get tangible FPS increases by overclocking ram?

Not really. IF you have maxed out practically everything else your system can possibly have, then you might as well look at faster memory to eek out the last dregs of performance that can be gotten, but generally it will not make any discernible difference for gaming. I think in rendering you might get slightly more benefit and if you're running multiple VMs or doing high-volume database work, it may become more worthwhile. But generally it's a shiny more than a good return on investment.

That said, it would be very nice to be able to have faster memory for Zen but I think Silent Scone could well be right. I said about a year ago that my biggest fear for Zen would be a weak memory controller. The big focus of Zen, remember, is not gaming but the server market. And as far as I'm aware, the server market doesn't go plugging in 3200 RAM cards. They stick to the standard specified speeds for DDR4. And they use DDR4 not for the increased speed on the whole, but for its lower power consumption.

Zen being locked to official RAM speeds is quite possible. But at the same time, it's also not something most customers (including gamers) should be that concerned about.

 

[SiDeards73]

5GHz? Beating 6900? Where are all these criteria for success coming from?

With regards to RyZen, i dont expect it to come in much cheaper than Intel, and why should it? if AMD are competitive with Intel they have a right to charge similar prices, they want market share, they can be a bit more aggressive with the prices, they are however a business designed to make money to keep shareholders happy etc.

I dont expect RyZen to be dirt cheap, although i have a feeling that the 8c/16t is going to be slightly cheaper than a 6900k if performance is in the same area, probably around the £750 mark, but i think where AMD might clean up is competing against the i3, i5 and i7's, i think they will offer similar performance @ stock, while probably offering more cores and at a slightly cheaper price point. Thats my theory on it anyhow

 

[eddiew]

But in all honesty, who cares what someone else buys as long as it makes them happy, with regards to RyZen, i dont expect it to come in much cheaper than Intel, and why should it? if AMD are competitive with Intel they have a right to charge similar prices...

If Kia came out with a car that performed like a BMW or a Mercedes, they wouldn't be able to sell it for the same price... AMD have a lot of work to do to:
a) regain enthusiast trust after previous hype fiascoes
b) market the darn thing, and
c) get good, honest, real review scores

If they do all three, then their next product can go on sale for a premium price, but not Zen. Zen has to be the budget option to engage new users and gain trust. Everyone knows Intel's 4-tone jingle. Has there ever been an AMD ad on TV?

Not that I wouldn't be happy for AMD/Kia to offer reliable, high-performance units that go toe-to-toe with market leaders. I will be extraordinarily pleased if Zen competes with Intel and does so at 66% the price! The double-good news there would be Intel are likely to cut theirs, so by the time Zen II comes along, a new pricing model will be in effect and we'll wave goodbye to the obscenities of the last couple of years

 

[h4rm0ny]

If Kia came out with a car that performed like a BMW or a Mercedes, they wouldn't be able to sell it for the same price... AMD have a lot of work to do to:
a) regain enthusiast trust after previous hype fiascoes
b) market the darn thing, and
c) get good, honest, real review scores

If they do all three, then their next product can go on sale for a premium price, but not Zen. Zen has to be the budget option to engage new users and gain trust. Everyone knows Intel's 4-tone jingle. Has there ever been an AMD ad on TV?

Not that I wouldn't be happy for AMD/Kia to offer reliable, high-performance units that go toe-to-toe with market leaders. I will be extraordinarily pleased if Zen competes with Intel and does so at 66% the price! The double-good news there would be Intel are likely to cut theirs, so by the time Zen II comes along, a new pricing model will be in effect and we'll wave goodbye to the obscenities of the last couple of years

I base my purchasing decisions on reliable information and reviews. If AMD's performance-price meets my needs, they're good. I've had an FX-8350 for years now and been pretty pleased with it. AMD don't have a bad reputation in my book.

 

[SiDeards73]

I base my purchasing decisions on reliable information and reviews. If AMD's performance-price meets my needs, they're good. I've had an FX-8350 for years now and been pretty pleased with it. AMD don't have a bad reputation in my book.

Yeah unfortunately though, their CPU reputation is in a bit of a mess right now, the whole Bulldozer etc thing went down like a lead balloon, and they added insult to injury by pricing it insanely at release also.

AMD also pulled a similar stunt with the FuryX / Fury cards, they were massively overpriced for the performance they offered, even now they would be hard pressed to sell them at the release price with the current performance they offer.

Not saying AMD need to be cheap, and i dont expect them to be cheap either, but they will probably need to undercut Intel prices to gain any real traction in the market, sure good reviews will definitely help, but there is a lot of mindshare they need to get back.

The same people who dont buy AMD GPU's because they dont trust them cos of "bad drivers, cards too hot, uses too much power, nvidia is just so much better" are also a lot of the same people who think this also reflects on their CPU's and stick with Intel because their mate Bob has a 2500k @ 4.5ghz and it smahes everything etc.

AMD need to break current perception of their brand and re-establish themselves in the CPU market as a serious competitor to Intel.

 

[Relentless81]

I base my purchasing decisions on reliable information and reviews. If AMD's performance-price meets my needs, they're good. I've had an FX-8350 for years now and been pretty pleased with it. AMD don't have a bad reputation in my book.

As if I wrote it myself, I have the same CPU too. I dont care about reputation as long as it hits the price/performance mark I'll be getting one, if Intel offer a better price/performance CPU once Ryzen is released I'll get that instead

 

[SiDeards73]

As if I wrote it myself, I have the same CPU too. I dont care about reputation as long as it hits the price/performance mark I'll be getting one, if Intel offer a better price/performance CPU once Ryzen is released I'll get that instead

Funnily enough when i bought my 4770k i almost bought an 8350, i had one in my basket, but asked around and a fair few people said the 4770k was the better chip, im actually wondering if there would have been too much difference in gaming, probably as i play WoW mostly and its notoriously CPU heavy.

I have wanted a competitive AMD CPU System for a good few years now, and im not saying the 8xxx series were or are not, its just the Intel ones were just that much better it seems at the time Hopefully this is about to change though!

 

[jigger]

Yeah unfortunately though, their CPU reputation is in a bit of a mess right now, the whole Bulldozer etc thing went down like a lead balloon, and they added insult to injury by pricing it insanely at release also.

AMD also pulled a similar stunt with the FuryX / Fury cards, they were massively overpriced for the performance they offered, even now they would be hard pressed to sell them at the release price with the current performance they offer.

Not saying AMD need to be cheap, and i dont expect them to be cheap either, but they will probably need to undercut Intel prices to gain any real traction in the market, sure good reviews will definitely help, but there is a lot of mindshare they need to get back.

The same people who dont buy AMD GPU's because they dont trust them cos of "bad drivers, cards too hot, uses too much power, nvidia is just so much better" are also a lot of the same people who think this also reflects on their CPU's and stick with Intel because their mate Bob has a 2500k @ 4.5ghz and it smahes everything etc.

AMD need to break current perception of their brand and re-establish themselves in the CPU market as a serious competitor to Intel.

You have a skewed view of AMD I think. The general public buy AMD and so will the enthusiasts if AMD offer the right products. People that say AMD have bad drivers and pull too much power don't matter at all.

 

[Legend]

AMD need to break current perception of their brand and re-establish themselves in the CPU market as a serious competitor to Intel.

Yeah this is definitely something that isn't being talked about enough, and I don't know how aware AMD are of this situation. To be honest, people on this forum are probably less susceptible to the brand nonsense (although there are clearly exceptions based on some posts I've read). The broader issue is your average consumer who has probably only ever heard of Intel, or certainly don't consider AMD when making a purchase. I know people who don't even know AMD do CPUs... seriously! All they know is Intel and that if they want a fast PC, that's what they need to get. Yes AMD sell CPUs, but mostly in pre-built systems where people don't even know what they're getting! For the average consumer who vaguely knows about PC's (i.e not the enthusiasts), Intel is THE go-to brand, AMD barely register. They need to shatter this perception, and that won't happen overnight. I don't know if they realise how far they've fallen given how long Intel have had the market pretty much to themselves. It's worse for CPUs than it is for GPUs.

 

[SiDeards73]

You have a skewed view of AMD I think. The general public buy AMD and so will the enthusiasts if AMD offer the right products. People that say AMD have bad drivers and pull too much power don't matter at all.

Not at all, i have specifically always bought AMD where possible, my GPU history for the past few generations has been 6950, 7870, 290 ref, 290 tri-x, i was really struggling not to buy an AMD CPU as well

I dont like Nvidia at all, but recently gave in as my 290 was starting to struggle on my 1440p 144hz Freesync screen, so i have bought a 1070 purely as a stopgap until Vega, believe me the minute Vega is available this 1070 is getting sold, and the minute RyZen is released im moving to that, this 4770k is going to my kids.

AMD make great products but unfortunately most of them suffer from one or more flaws recently which has tarnished their reputation.

Their GPU's get better over time, where as Nvidia usually regress to an extent, however the R9 290 Ref i had while its performance was top notch, the cooler was an absolute joke, hence why i moved to the 290 Tri-X. Fiji was a joke, overpriced, underperforming "overclockers dream" with the X version having bad pump whine issues, and the entire Fiji product stack having terrible supply issues.

Lately Polaris was hampered by the PCIE power issue that kinda tarnished its rep a little. Also it really gave me little desire to upgrade from my 290.

My View of AMD is they are a great company that makes great products that are often flawed in one way or another, enough to make me not want to buy that product when there is better less flawed alternatives available.

Once AMD can release something that ticks all the boxes, their reputation will start to get better again.

I know for a fact their drivers are not bad as well, and i know for a fact that the extra power draw is laughable at best in actual cost over a year terms, but its the small things that add up and leave you wondering what flaw will exist in the next products etc.

 

[jigger]

AMD's reputation is solid. They own the console market, lead the way in the graphics graphics and even with a tiny budget seem to have pulled off the impossible with Zen.

 

[Mauller]

With the timing, I wonder if Microsoft Scorpio final hardware will use a quad zen with smt and Vega derived gpu.