*** AMD "Zen" thread (inc AM4/APU discussion) ***

[4K8KW10]

In the past it has been stuff like providing single channel RAM set ups for APU based notebooks which rely heavily on RAM latency/speed/capacity. Several of the few recent ryzen ones that have came out have had poor cooling design that has significantly throttled the system between what should be spec identical laptops, giving worse performance than the mobile parts should provide and providing a inconsistant user experiance. You then also have the very poor driver support for the onboard graphics, provided by vendors who were the only source that provided drivers often several months behind, which despite AMD promising to solve, has not been integrated into every new driver release as far as i am aware. These are all well known issues.

I have a full desktop system with them. But the laptop output by themselves and their partners has been flawed and particularly lackluster. Hopefully this is the start of changes in this area. Those laptops seem decent, I look forward to the reviews. (price is £949 btw)

Well, their official position, very sadly and unfortunately, is:

So, Should I Just Stick to Single Channel Memory Then?
The tests above show that, for gaming, there isn’t any kind of noticeable difference between running your memory in single and dual channel memory configurations.
This, of course, doesn’t mean that dual channel configurations shouldn’t be considered.

https://techguided.com/single-channel-vs-dual-channel-vs-quad-channel/

Not the best link but I cannot find right now one better.

Regarding the drivers - yes, AMD promised to begin releasing drivers on their own website this quarter.

Cooling I don't know. My Acer Nitro 5 with dual graphics including a discrete RX 560X runs fine.

 

[Davedree]

Well, their official position, very sadly and unfortunately, is:


https://techguided.com/single-channel-vs-dual-channel-vs-quad-channel/

Not the best link but I cannot find right now one better.

Regarding the drivers - yes, AMD promised to begin releasing drivers on their own website this quarter.

Cooling I don't know. My Acer Nitro 5 with dual graphics including a discrete RX 560X runs fine.

You have totally missed a very important factor.A dgu will hardly be affected by single channel memory,Apu graphics however require as much bandwidth as possible from the ddr4 memory controller, running in single channel memory will half the bandwidth that feeds the Apu, this will drop the fps from 50-80%.

With ryzen laptops it's not so much the cooling that is limting the performance,(though some are barely adequate), it's the board power limit of 15w which is the issue.
There's variance in manufacture laptops because some are using superior mboards with the 15w/25w/35w/45w straps.
There is a work around for any ryzen laptop now, using clover and some tinkering. I've yet to test but will be carrying it out quite soon.

 

[4K8KW10]

You have totally missed a very important factor.A dgu will hardly be affected by single channel memory,Apu graphics however require as much bandwidth as possible from the ddr4 memory controller, running in single channel memory will half the bandwidth that feeds the Apu, this will drop the fps from 50-80%.

Prove it. Provide some links and send them to the OEMs.

 

[Orcvader]

Prove it. Provide some links and send them to the OEMs.

Memory bandwidth has always been the bottleneck for APUs. The link you provided above only shows how it affects CPU performance, and discrete GPUs tends to have their own memory so will be unaffected. APUs on the other hand will have to share with the CPU, and CPU memory tends to have significantly less bandwidth than graphics memory.

There's a recent review of single vs dual here with the 2400G: https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/...ory-kit-benchmarks-and-single-vs-dual-channel

One thing’s for certain: Going with multi-channel configurations is a must on the Raven Ridge APUs – at least, it is for the games we tested. If debating between 1x8GB stick and 2x4GB sticks, go 2x4GB. It will matter in the games we’ve tested, and likely many others.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Prove it. Provide some links and send them to the OEMs.

Yeah, though he provided proof this is painfully obvious, extremely widely and well known and shouldn't require someone providing proof.

You also appear to be entirely forgetting that after loading up the gpu with data, the gpu only accesses local memory in game and the memory on that particular GPU in the review you linked has 256GB/s of memory bandwidth available to it.

So the system you're talking about and linked to the CPU has half the memory bandwidth but the GPU has many many times that amount of bandwidth. Now put the GPU and CPU together and you thought memory bandwidth won't be any kind of issue even though memory bandwidth on APUs has been a performance limiting factor in every single APU ever made?

 

[4K8KW10]

Yeah, though he provided proof this is painfully obvious, extremely widely and well known and shouldn't require someone providing proof.

You also appear to be entirely forgetting that after loading up the gpu with data, the gpu only accesses local memory in game and the memory on that particular GPU in the review you linked has 256GB/s of memory bandwidth available to it.

So the system you're talking about and linked to the CPU has half the memory bandwidth but the GPU has many many times that amount of bandwidth. Now put the GPU and CPU together and you thought memory bandwidth won't be any kind of issue even though memory bandwidth on APUs has been a performance limiting factor in every single APU ever made?

I am not forgetting anything. If you want higher performance, go to the shop and buy a kit. Or order your product with dual-channel configuration.
It is in the OEM's right to first offer you the cheapest possible base, and it is you to blame if you don't purchase a higher package.
It is painfully obvious.

 

[drunkenmaster]

I am not forgetting anything. If you want higher performance, go to the shop and buy a kit. Or order your product with dual-channel configuration.
It is in the OEM's right to first offer you the cheapest possible base, and it is you to blame if you don't purchase a higher package.
It is painfully obvious.

Yeah my post had nothing to do with cost, OEMs, what laptops were available at all. That's called trying to shift the argument. You claimed that single channel memory didn't effect gaming performance by pointing to a review which added a dgpu and gave that dgpu an extra 256gb/s of bandwidth. when someone pointed out that APUs are massively bandwidth limited you told them to prove it and then send THAT proof to OEMs. The point, and the proof, had exactly nothing to do with cost, OEMs, models available or anything else.

THe point which you asked to be proved was a basic one everyone knows, APUs are bandwidth limited for gaming on the included gpu. The proof has been provided to you, my post was to point out the link you provided which you believed said the opposite, did no such thing, you were just completely ignoring that the dgpu had it's own memory bandwidth.

 

[4K8KW10]

Yeah my post had nothing to do with cost, OEMs, what laptops were available at all. That's called trying to shift the argument. You claimed that single channel memory didn't effect gaming performance by pointing to a review which added a dgpu and gave that dgpu an extra 256gb/s of bandwidth. when someone pointed out that APUs are massively bandwidth limited you told them to prove it and then send THAT proof to OEMs. The point, and the proof, had exactly nothing to do with cost, OEMs, models available or anything else.

THe point which you asked to be proved was a basic one everyone knows, APUs are bandwidth limited for gaming on the included gpu. The proof has been provided to you, my post was to point out the link you provided which you believed said the opposite, did no such thing, you were just completely ignoring that the dgpu had it's own memory bandwidth.

I told you and the other people what the OEMs official position is, and it is:

So, Should I Just Stick to Single Channel Memory Then?
The tests above show that, for gaming, there isn’t any kind of noticeable difference between running your memory in single and dual channel memory configurations.
This, of course, doesn’t mean that dual channel configurations shouldn’t be considered.

https://techguided.com/single-channel-vs-dual-channel-vs-quad-channel/

It doesn't matter if the user plays on the integrated graphics which I can't know how many actually do, or game with a discrete card, or just uses the laptop for general uses where there is a negligible difference, too.

My point is - Good luck convincing them that you are right.

 

[Alexrose1uk]

There is a difference, regardless of system, it depends more on sensitive a game is to memory bandwidth (Fallout 4 was one such example), but on an APU system this is amplified due to the reliance on system memory.

Perfect example of dual vs single channel making a difference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58PboimKOwA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBVSNxcLn0g

And finally, with a Ryzen APU...definitive difference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoC7BvcKthQ

OEMs do it for cost and simplicity, nothing more.

 

[Murphy]

Well, their official position, very sadly and unfortunately, is:

So, Should I Just Stick to Single Channel Memory Then?
The tests above show that, for gaming, there isn’t any kind of noticeable difference between running your memory in single and dual channel memory configurations.
This, of course, doesn’t mean that dual channel configurations shouldn’t be considered.

https://techguided.com/single-channel-vs-dual-channel-vs-quad-channel/

Not the best link but I cannot find right now one better.

That's not an official position, it's a tech enthusiast testing the effect of dual vs single channel RAM when using an add-in card, it's not even relevant to the original point that an iGPU's performance differs when using single or dual channel RAM.

Others have already linked to some result of single vs dual channel on an iGPU but if that's not enough here's some more.

And another one.

 

[humbug]

As above Dual Channel vs Single Channel memory makes a massive difference to the performance of high performance iGPU's like AMD's integrated graphics.

OEM vendors need to stop being so bloody cheap.

 

[4K8KW10]

As above Dual Channel vs Single Channel memory makes a massive difference to the performance of high performance iGPU's like AMD's integrated graphics.

OEM vendors need to stop being so bloody cheap.

They won't.

That is a conscious decision and their official position which they support has always been this:


https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1351086-laptop-with-single-channel-ram/

 

[Murphy]

Why do you keep saying it's their official position and posting links to forums and tech enthusiasts that have nothing to do with OEM's? Is there some kind of language problem with regards to what an OEM is or what official means.

 

[muon]

They won't.

That is a conscious decision and their official position which they support has always been this:


https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1351086-laptop-with-single-channel-ram/

That isn't an official position. That is a moron's position trying to justify something they clearly don't understand.

You are also posting in a forum where people know computer technology very well. So don't post links to pages which are dumbed down for other audiences.

Ryzen APUs are severely crippled by single channel memory. There is a significant amount of research that has been done on that. Even dual channel memory at 3200mhz is a bottleneck for higher end Ryzen APUs.

 

[ljt]

Dual is definitely faster for gaming than single channel, no question about it.

It bumps the minimums up quite considerably. Not so much the max fps, but the frametime variation is much much less with dual. I did this with my laptop that only came single channel. The minimums shot right up, and thats with a dedicated gpu as well, not just an APU.

 

[4K8KW10]

Why do you keep saying it's their official position and posting links to forums and tech enthusiasts that have nothing to do with OEM's? Is there some kind of language problem with regards to what an OEM is or what official means.

Ok. What is the OEMs' official position then if their actions coincide with the aforementioned statement?

Our enthusiasts knowledge gives us the advantage to know there is a benefit of going dual channel. It is just supportive to be for a upgrade path but nowhere we can demand from the OEMs to do what we want. They won't

 

[LePhuronn]

Ok. What is the OEMs' official position then if their actions coincide with the aforementioned statement?

Our enthusiasts knowledge gives us the advantage to know there is a benefit of going dual channel. It is just supportive to be for a upgrade path but nowhere we can demand from the OEMs to do what we want. They won't

I don't even know what the hell you're arguing about now. Dual Channel is better than Single Channel when feeding an APU data. End of. If OEMs choose to ignore this to maximise their profit margins then they will. End of. I don't get where this "OEM's official position" tub thumping comes from, because I'm sure as **** you're not an HP, Acer or Lenovo employee.

 

[Murphy]

Ok. What is the OEMs' official position then if their actions coincide with the aforementioned statement?

Our enthusiasts knowledge gives us the advantage to know there is a benefit of going dual channel. It is just supportive to be for a upgrade path but nowhere we can demand from the OEMs to do what we want. They won't

I would assume they don't have one, I've not checked every OEM's position though so i couldn't say one way or the other, however it isn't me who keeps claiming they have one and as it's much harder, or at times impossible, to prove a negative the burden is on you to prove they have an official position, not on me to prove they don't.

Also we can demand whatever we want, that doesn't mean someone would acquiesce to those demands but 'we', whoever 'we' are, can make any demands we want.

 

[4K8KW10]

I would assume they don't have one, I've not checked every OEM's position though so i couldn't say one way or the other, however it isn't me who keeps claiming they have one and as it's much harder, or at times impossible, to prove a negative the burden is on you to prove they have an official position, not on me to prove they don't.

Also we can demand whatever we want, that doesn't mean someone would acquiesce to those demands but 'we', whoever 'we' are, can make any demands we want.

Ok, they should have an excuse, which can be viewed as a silent official position. They are not stupid and they know better than us what's good and what's not good.

 

[Murphy]

There must be a language barrier or something as you can't have a 'silent' official position and you don't have to excuse or justify a position you've not taken.

And yes they are stupid, you only have to look at all the bloat they install so they can offer cheaper products to see that cost/price trumps all, you only have to look at all the security flaws introduced by OEM's (à la SuperFish). The only thing I'd trust OEM's to know is what's best for their bottom line.