And Lewis Hamilton matches Michael Schumacher's 7 titles!

[stockhausen]

. . . . Schumacher very rarely made mistakes in that regard. He was like the ultimate combination of Prost and Senna.

Schumacher certainly had determination but he was kinda questionable over "fair play":

• Jumping ship from Jordan to Benetton
• "Crashing" with Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve
• Ignoring a black flag
• "Unused" launch control that was "accidentally" left on his Benetton
• Insisting that his team mate had to act as his rear gunner and generally know his place - behind Schumacher.

I am sure that Prost and Senna were just as bad?

Hamilton comes across as being more "honourable" - perhaps time will show otherwise - I doubt it, Schumacher was one of a kind.

 

[this_is_gav]

Hamilton comes across as being more "honourable" - perhaps time will show otherwise - I doubt it, Schumacher was one of a kind.

Hamilton deliberately lied (and continued to do so even when faced with about overtaking a competitor behind the safety car. He's no angel as 2007 and 2009 proved.

There are few good guy champions. I don't like the phrase "nice guys finish last", but that is the attitude many multiple champions had - that steely will to win at any cost. Hamilton has it (less so as he's matured and his stature has increased, but he still enjoyed pushing Rosberg off the track at every opportunity, leaving the choice in Rosberg's hands over whether they had a crash or not), Schumacher had it, Senna had it, Prost had it, Piquet had it and so on.

It's not just on the track, but political moving behind the scenes - it's a skill Prost had and it's something Piquet used too. Ron Dennis was especially bad for this, as he showed with his favouritism with Senna, Hakkinen and Hamilton. Coulthard's version of events when he and Hakkinen were teammates are very telling.



As for Benetton's launch control, the only time I remember that being a suspicion was at Magny-Cours, when he got a brilliant start (aided or otherwise) and overtook Hill and Mansell who had a shocking start (not having done a standing start for two years). I know Senna had suspicions that Benetton had traction control in 1994, but there's never been any evidence of that, audibly or otherwise.

 

[pallys]

Of course brundle and barichello would say that. They both raced against him and got battered. Schumacher won a double title at Benetton which wasn't the best car. He also took Ferrari from the ashes into a dominant force. Both drivers didn't have the competition like in the 80's although Schumacher caught the tail end of that in the early 90's. Hamilton bar the initial rule change in 09-10 has had a car that was either the fastest or close enough to be challenging for titles. Hamilton's decision making was extremely poor in his McLaren days and has only gotten better in recent times. Schumacher very rarely made mistakes in that regard. He was like the ultimate combination of Prost and Senna.

I don't rate his Benetton titles at all, he cheated to them in 94 and in 95 with hidden traction control option 13. It's annoying the FIA did not penalise just because he said he never used the option in race only in practise.
They also illegally tampered with the fuel flow filter so they could do faster pitstop overtakes, again exposed when verstappen or lehto? car caught fire in fuel pitstop.

Disgusting cheat, not a great sportsman at all, and neither the most naturally gifted either, so what is there left to debate.

 

[this_is_gav]

I don't rate his Benetton titles at all, he cheated to them in 94 and in 95 with hidden traction control option 13.

If Schumacher had traction control then he would have finished a lap ahead of Hill at Suzuka rather than finish behind him.

It was the poor Williams (in the first few races anyway) and obviously Senna's death that cost them the title, not anything Benetton were doing - indeed Benetton went a long way towards

If you don't think every team tries the tricks that most believe Benetton did then you're sorely mistaken. Every team has always bent the rules. The real art is whether you get caught or not.

 

[adam cool dude]

I don't rate his Benetton titles at all, he cheated to them in 94 and in 95 with hidden traction control option 13. It's annoying the FIA did not penalise just because he said he never used the option in race only in practise.
They also illegally tampered with the fuel flow filter so they could do faster pitstop overtakes, again exposed when verstappen or lehto? car caught fire in fuel pitstop.

Disgusting cheat, not a great sportsman at all, and neither the most naturally gifted either, so what is there left to debate.

Mercedes burned oil in qualifying plus what ever else was missed by the stewards. All the teams bend the rules as much as they can. The whole traction control thing is just a myth. Like already said hill in Japan would never have happened otherwise.

Williams in 94 had the best engine. Benetton's Ford was pretty average. The car was a mess though after active suspension was banned but still the fastest on the grid although not as dominant as 93.

Mercedes got the rule change in 14 almost perfect. Due to the fact testing is banned and also engine development as well. Teams just cannot catch up.

 

[pallys]

There is no IF about it, the FIA found it and Schumacher did his best to hide it by not demolishing the field.

Knowing the kind of character Schumacher was and the lengths he went to to win who believes him that he only invoked option 13 in practise?

The FIA reasoning for not disqualifling was laughable -"yes we found option 13 traction control but we cannot prove he used the option in race".

Laughable because it should not have been on the car in the first place.

 

[pallys]

Mercedes burned oil in qualifying plus what ever else was missed by the stewards. All the teams bend the rules as much as they can. The whole traction control thing is just a myth. Like already said hill in Japan would never have happened otherwise.

Williams in 94 had the best engine. Benetton's Ford was pretty average. The car was a mess though after active suspension was banned but still the fastest on the grid although not as dominant as 93.

Mercedes got the rule change in 14 almost perfect. Due to the fact testing is banned and also engine development as well. Teams just cannot catch up.

Engines always burn oil.
This is very different to have illegal traction control on your car hidden under option 13 in the menu -this is not myth but a fact as FIA investigation formally concluded this.

 

[pallys]

Schumacher teamtes:
De Cesaris
Brundle
Patrese
Jos Verstappen
JJ Lehto
Herbert
Irvine
Barrichello
Massa

Hamilton teammates:
Alonso
Button
Rosberg
Bottas
Kovaleinen

The quality of teamates does not compare.
WDC level teamates for Hamilton has cost him at least 2 additional titles.

 

[adam cool dude]

Engines always burn oil.
This is very different to have illegal traction control on your car hidden under option 13 in the menu -this is not myth but a fact as FIA investigation formally concluded this.

Yes but they were using them to increase octane rating. All the top teams bend the rules that's how it is.

 

[this_is_gav]

Engines always burn oil.
This is very different to have illegal traction control on your car hidden under option 13 in the menu -this is not myth but a fact as FIA investigation formally concluded this.

But it doesn't mean they used it. It's the same with Ferrari. Larini claimed that they had used traction control at Imola in free practice so what was to stop them later using it?

You'd still be disqualifying half the cars on the grid if you think having the means to do something equates to proof of use.

 

[adam cool dude]

Schumacher teamtes:
De Cesaris
Brundle
Patrese
Jos Verstappen
JJ Lehto
Herbert
Irvine
Barrichello
Massa

Hamilton teammates:
Alonso
Button
Rosberg
Bottas
Kovaleinen

The quality of teamates does not compare.
WDC level teamates for Hamilton has cost him at least 2 additional titles.

Hamilton's past 6 years have had average team mates at best. Against Alonso they ended up equal and Button equalled or beat him in the championship on more occasions. Hamilton was dropped into the best car on the grid in his rookie season. Schumacher had to prove his worth. You could also argue Schumacher got stuck with Bridgestones for 05 and 06 costing him a further two championships plus if he hadn't broke his leg in 1999 he would have had another title.

 

[pallys]

But it doesn't mean they used it. It's the same with Ferrari. Larini claimed that they had used traction control at Imola in free practice so what was to stop them later using it?

Yes we'll have to take Schumacher's word for it that he only used option13 it in practise - he is a jolly sporting chap afterall!
This is from the guy who parked it at Rascasse.

 

[pallys]

Hamilton's past 6 years have had average team mates at best. Against Alonso they ended up equal and Button equalled or beat him in the championship on more occasions. Hamilton was dropped into the best car on the grid in his rookie season. Schumacher had to prove his worth.

Factually incorrect might I add.
FIA ranked Hamilton>Alonso because Hamilton had more podiums.
FIA ranked Hamilton over Button 2 out of the 3 seasons.

Anyway the point I'm making is Schumacher had weak teamates and that kind of advantage cost Hamilton 2 WDC's.

 

[adam cool dude]

Yes we'll have to take Schumacher's word for it that he only used option13 it in practise - he is a jolly sporting chap afterall!
This is from the guy who parked it at Rascasse.

Also the same guy that did things that Lewis could only dream of. Go watch Spain 96.

 

[Flibster]

Mercedes burned oil in qualifying plus what ever else was missed by the stewards. All the teams bend the rules as much as they can. The whole traction control thing is just a myth. Like already said hill in Japan would never have happened otherwise.

Wasn't it Ferrari that had the secondary oil tank and were affected by the oil burn regs more than Mercedes?

 

[adam cool dude]

Factually incorrect might I add.
FIA ranked Hamilton>Alonso because Hamilton had more podiums.
FIA ranked Hamilton over Button 2 out of the 3 seasons.

Anyway the point I'm making is Schumacher had weak teamates and that kind of advantage cost Hamilton 2 WDC's.

Factually incorrect yet you cite FIA who said factually that Schumacher had done no wrong in 1994. Button scored the most points in the three seasons they were together btw.

Schumacher had a broken leg which cost him 1999 and ran Bridgestones in 05/06 that cost him another two. What's your point? Lewis lost 07 to Raikonen and McLaren were cheating anyway in spygate so Alonso had nothing to do with it. All Lewis' dominance in Mercedes has been with average drivers no difference to Schumacher at Ferrari. Barichello just wasn't aloud to fight unlike Rosberg. They were both of the same level and Bottas is just a journeyman.

 

[this_is_gav]

Yes we'll have to take Schumacher's word for it that he only used option13 it in practise - he is a jolly sporting chap afterall!
This is from the guy who parked it at Rascasse.

I'm fully aware of Schumacher's transgressions. Like many here, yourself included I assume, I have seen every race he's driven.

I'm also not naive enough to say "Benetton did not use launch control" because frankly you and I don't know. What I will say though is that nobody has ever presented any evidence that they used or even had traction control, which I think is what you're confusing.

I certainly don't think anyone has claimed Benetton only used traction control in practice. That was Larini (talking about his own Ferrari in 1994).

 

[pallys]

I'm fully aware of Schumacher's transgressions. Like many here, yourself included I assume, I have seen every race he's driven.

I'm also not naive enough to say "Benetton did not use launch control" because frankly you and I don't know. What I will say though is that nobody has ever presented any evidence that they used or even had traction control, which I think is what you're confusing.

I certainly don't think anyone has claimed Benetton only used traction control in practice. That was Larini (talking about his own Ferrari in 1994).

You're wrong btw - have a read of this FIA statement on the events - LINK

 

[this_is_gav]

You're wrong btw - have a read of this FIA statement on the events - LINK

In what way am I wrong?

 

[deuse]

There is no IF about it, the FIA found it and Schumacher did his best to hide it by not demolishing the field.

Knowing the kind of character Schumacher was and the lengths he went to to win who believes him that he only invoked option 13 in practise?

The FIA reasoning for not disqualifling was laughable -"yes we found option 13 traction control but we cannot prove he used the option in race".

Laughable because it should not have been on the car in the first place.

It was the FIAs fault that they never got caught out
The rules at the time only prevented the use of traction control, not the existence of software that might be used to implement it.

Back then the fIa was as bent as a 6 speed walking stick.