And Lewis Hamilton wins his 5th Championship!

[The_Abyss]

That's exactly it - Vettel puts himself directly into positions where there's an opportunity for the likely outcome to be a mistake. And he's made contact far too frequently in those situations.

Ocon should have received a ban for his actions in Brazil.

On what grounds exactly should he receive a ban? Because the outcome annoyed Verstappen and his many fans?

But Vettel isn’t finished and I love the way people say that he was only able to win because Red Bull were so dominant at the time and he can only win races from the front. Hasn’t that’s what just happened for Hamilton?

Hardly, when the Mercedes hasn't been the fastest car for a number of the weekends that Hamilton managed to win.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

But Vettel isn’t finished and I love the way people say that he was only able to win because Red Bull were so dominant at the time and he can only win races from the front. Hasn’t that’s what just happened for Hamilton?

Probably something to do with this little statistic....

Vettel is long-established as one of F1's very best front-runners and it is therefore little surprise that 31 of his 50 race wins have come after starting on pole position. That works out at 62 per cent.

But one of the curiosities of Vettel's career remains his failure to win a race when starting outside the front three on the grid

 

[ilc72]

Probably something to do with this little statistic....

It’s true but how relevant is it? Correlation does not equal causation.

There are two parts to Vettel’s career, pre turbo-hybrid and post. Before the turbo hybrid era he won a lot of races in a very good car. The trouble is Mercedes has been so dominant that over the past six years its often been impossible to beat them unless starting from the front barring mechanical failure at a handful of circuits?

Only last year Ferrari (ergo Vettel) had a car that was anywhere near close on engine power, this year it has ebbed and flowed as to who had the better car. The key to this championship was Germany (single locked brake let’s not forget) and the Mercedes rear tyre “cooling” device was key. Once taken off the car in Austin TX Mercedes have continually struggled with rear tyres and did again in Brazil.

One thing I give credit for is putting LeClerc in the car alongside Vettel. Let’s see if Mercedes have the bottle to do the same as if they want to win further constructors titles then Bottas isn’t going to cut it in my view.

One thing that has hurt Vettel is the renaissance of Red Bull, since Ferrari generally go better on the same type of circuits. Vettel has made some amazing recovery drives this year. Lewis has had an amazing season, no doubt, and is the one lap king.

 

[Mr Jack]

It’s true but how relevant is it? Correlation does not equal causation.

There are two parts to Vettel’s career, pre turbo-hybrid and post. Before the turbo hybrid era he won a lot of races in a very good car. The trouble is Mercedes has been so dominant that over the past six years its often been impossible to beat them unless starting from the front barring mechanical failure at a handful of circuits?

You mean over the last five years

This year Vettel has utterly squandered his car advantage. A better driver in that Ferrari and they won this season. Swap Lewis and Vettel and Lewis still wins. Comfortably. Vettel has never won in a car without a clear advantage over the rest; Lewis has done it twice. In fact, in his first winning season, Vettel's very nearly lost to a driver in the third best car that season.

That aside, across their careers Vettel and Lewis have had similar levels of car advantage. It's true that most of Lewis's wins came with a solid car advantage but Lewis has achieved a lot more in the seasons his car wasn't championship wining. Lewis has never had a season without a win; Vettel has done it twice - including in a season that his teammate won three races. I suppose the counterpoint is 2007 where Lewis should have won but threw it away at the last; but this was his rookie season. Vettel is more than experienced enough that he shouldn't be blundering into other drivers and throwing away a season by now.

 

[ilc72]

That's exactly it - Vettel puts himself directly into positions where there's an opportunity for the likely outcome to be a mistake. And he's made contact far too frequently in those situations.

On what grounds exactly should he receive a ban? Because the outcome annoyed Verstappen and his many fans?

Hardly, when the Mercedes hasn't been the fastest car for a number of the weekends that Hamilton managed to win.

I’ve been watching F1 for a very long time, my username may give a clue. Do you remember Schumacher having all his drivers points for a whole season taken away for nerfing someone off.

Also let’s be realistic, Germany where Hamilton won so far from down the grid was a unique set of circumstances.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_German_Grand_Prix#Qualifying

Lewis would not have won the race had Bottas not been told to hold station on much fresher tyres. It was a power circuit and Ricciardo started from the back after engine penalties. Also what about Hamilton failing to receive a penalty for crossing the pit lane line in the race? Kimi had his usual pre-Monza indifferent race.

I need to stop watching Sky F1 as their bias is getting ridiculous.

Vettel has made mistakes no doubt, however there is something very unusual about the spins after direct wheel-to-wheel contact as was the case in Monza and Suzuka.

After Germany Vettel was chasing and sometimes you have to force things to happen. I’d rather he went for it than just let Hamilton win.

Hamilton has had an excellent season, most consistent he’s ever had, but he’s had his luck along the way. Weather in Hungary comes to mind, Bottas should have won in Baku, Germany, and Russia. Also let’s not forget Singapore, Lewis pulled out the lap of his life in qualifying but if the special “cooling” rear wheel rims not been on the car would he have been able to hold off Verstappen and possibly Vettel.

There is a lot of what if’s and had Hamilton had anywhere the issues that he had in 2016 would he of won the WDC?

I commend Hamilton as a great, someone who’s had a great season, but he’s won 4 of his 5 championships in the turbo hybrid era where Mercedes have dominated. Until 2017 you often saw them winning races by 60 seconds from the rival teams.

I pray in 2019 we see a competitive Honda engine and Ferrari continue their renaissance and don’t make decisions.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

It’s true but how relevant is it? Correlation does not equal causation.

Well it directly backs up the quote you were questioning. I.e people saying he could only win from the front in a dominant Red Bull.

As you asked in your post, it’s not something that has troubled Hamilton or Alonso.

 

[ilc72]

You mean over the last five years

This year Vettel has utterly squandered his car advantage. A better driver in that Ferrari and they won this season. Swap Lewis and Vettel and Lewis still wins. Comfortably. Vettel has never won in a car without a clear advantage over the rest; Lewis has done it twice. In fact, in his first winning season, Vettel's very nearly lost to a driver in the third best car that season.

That aside, across their careers Vettel and Lewis have had similar levels of car advantage. It's true that most of Lewis's wins came with a solid car advantage but Lewis has achieved a lot more in the seasons his car wasn't championship wining. Lewis has never had a season without a win; Vettel has done it twice - including in a season that his teammate won three races. I suppose the counterpoint is 2007 where Lewis should have won but threw it away at the last; but this was his rookie season. Vettel is more than experienced enough that he shouldn't be blundering into other drivers and throwing away a season by now.

See my most recent post.

A couple of point to add, don’t forget Vettel in Monza in a Torro Rosso. As for 2007 there’s a 2008 and he nearly threw it away and was lucky to pass a slow Toyota at the final corner to claim the 5th place he needed after an otherwise poor race.

 

[ilc72]

I want to make it clear, I am not saying Lewis is not a great champion and a deserved winner this year, but all the beating up on Verstappen and Vettel is a little unfair.

 

[ilc72]

Also Vettel has been battling some serious off track personal issues this season, the paddock has respected his privacy as it should.

 

[ilc72]

See my most recent post.

A couple of point to add, don’t forget Vettel in Monza in a Torro Rosso. As for 2007 there’s a 2008 and he nearly threw it away and was lucky to pass a slow Toyota at the final corner to claim the 5th place he needed after an otherwise poor race.

Ferrari has not been the dominant car, it started the season well but has tailed off badly. They made some terrible developments on the car after the summer break and only after they went to the early season design in Austin did they start to regain their competitiveness.

Also the car is one factor, in general apart from a few minor issues James Vowes and his strategy team have had an amazing season, compare this with some questionable calls from the Ferrari strategy team.

 

[Mr Jack]

Also let’s be realistic, Germany where Hamilton won so far from down the grid was a unique set of circumstances.

Sure, you don't win from that far back in a normal race; it's still impressive to do it at all.

Vettel has made mistakes no doubt, however there is something very unusual about the spins after direct wheel-to-wheel contact as was the case in Monza and Suzuka.

True, but they were still entirely his fault.

After Germany Vettel was chasing and sometimes you have to force things to happen. I’d rather he went for it than just let Hamilton win.

Vettel was only in such a position because he'd already made a host of mistakes. At that point, he should have been trying to maximise points to challenge when he had his opportunities. Throwing away points with stupid moves is what stuffed his - and Ferrari's - seasons.

I commend Hamilton as a great, someone who’s had a great season, but he’s won 4 of his 5 championships in the turbo hybrid era where Mercedes have dominated. Until 2017 you often saw them winning races by 60 seconds from the rival teams.

He's had three of five with a clear advantage. This season Ferrari/Vettel should have won. In 2008, well, see below. Vettel has won four of four with a stronger car advantage.

I pray in 2019 we see a competitive Honda engine and Ferrari continue their renaissance and don’t make decisions.

Me too. If I was to pick a driver I'm a fan of - yeah, it'd be Lewis - but I'd much rather see a season of battling F1 than a season where my favourite driver wins.

...don’t forget Vettel in Monza in a Torro Rosso.

I agree that was a fantastic weekend for Vettel. Really impressive. But one impressive weekend doesn't make a career (q.v. Maldonado*). Vettel is good, no question, but he's not great. There's at least four better drivers on the grid this season.

As for 2007 there’s a 2008 and he nearly threw it away and was lucky to pass a slow Toyota at the final corner to claim the 5th place he needed after an otherwise poor race.

In 2008, he won in a car so poor that his (admittedly mediocre) teammate only managed seventh. That he won that season was an incredible achievement, dodgy last race notwithstanding.


*Not saying he's remotely a match to Vettel, mind, but Spain 2012 was an incredible drive.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

I think Vettel has probably tried too hard this year. In many ways, his unforced error in Germany put him on the backfoot which then meant he had to try harder to claw back those dropped 25pts.

Who’s to say it’s his off track issues but I’d prefer him to fight for the WDC than lose it through stupid errors. Stupid double points aside, the end of season race where multiple drivers can win is a highlight of the past few years for me.

 

[ilc72]

I think Vettel has probably tried too hard this year. In many ways, his unforced error in Germany put him on the backfoot which then meant he had to try harder to claw back those dropped 25pts.

Who’s to say it’s his off track issues but I’d prefer him to fight for the WDC than lose it through stupid errors. Stupid double points aside, the end of season race where multiple drivers can win is a highlight of the past few years for me.

Do you think the pressure of being a Ferrari driver has gotten to Vettel? We all love F1 but in Italy it’s a religion? I think LeClerc has shown through the junior formula that he’s a great prospect, but so was Stoffel and look how that’s turned out for him. I hope Stoffel gets another chance in F1 for redemption.

 

[Mr Jack]

Do you think the pressure of being a Ferrari driver has gotten to Vettel?

I think being not good enough got to Vettel.

I think LeClerc has shown through the junior formula that he’s a great prospect

While his surname is derived from Le Clerc, he spells it Leclerc, without an upper case C . I think he's in danger of being remarkably overrated. As yet, he's a quality lower tier driver. I hope he'll impress next season but it's a bit early to be chalking him up as a definite future champion.

...but so was Stoffel and look how that’s turned out for him. I hope Stoffel gets another chance in F1 for redemption.

Stoffel reminds me of Alex Wurz; a remarkable guest performance, followed by a mediocre regular seat.

 

[ilc72]

I think Vettel has probably tried too hard this year. In many ways, his unforced error in Germany put him on the backfoot which then meant he had to try harder to claw back those dropped 25pts.

Who’s to say it’s his off track issues but I’d prefer him to fight for the WDC than lose it through stupid errors. Stupid double points aside, the end of season race where multiple drivers can win is a highlight of the past few years for me.

Sure, you don't win from that far back in a normal race; it's still impressive to do it at all.



True, but they were still entirely his fault.



Vettel was only in such a position because he'd already made a host of mistakes. At that point, he should have been trying to maximise points to challenge when he had his opportunities. Throwing away points with stupid moves is what stuffed his - and Ferrari's - seasons.



He's had three of five with a clear advantage. This season Ferrari/Vettel should have won. In 2008, well, see below. Vettel has won four of four with a stronger car advantage.



Me too. If I was to pick a driver I'm a fan of - yeah, it'd be Lewis - but I'd much rather see a season of battling F1 than a season where my favourite driver wins.



I agree that was a fantastic weekend for Vettel. Really impressive. But one impressive weekend doesn't make a career (q.v. Maldonado*). Vettel is good, no question, but he's not great. There's at least four better drivers on the grid this season.



In 2008, he won in a car so poor that his (admittedly mediocre) teammate only managed seventh. That he won that season was an incredible achievement, dodgy last race notwithstanding.


*Not saying he's remotely a match to Vettel, mind, but Spain 2012 was an incredible drive.

Looking back historically I would say that Vettel is in the ilk of Prost, Hamilton is more in the ilk of Senna who remains for my all time great along with Schumacher. Time will judge Verstappen but again I see him more in the ilk of Senna.

Out of interest who would you say are the four better drivers?

Hamilton obviously but beyond that there are some great talents but I think Alonso is overrated, let’s not forget he was beaten by Lewis in his rookie year. There has been some fascinating interviews on the F1 podcast beyond the grid, I strongly recommend any F1 fan to check them out, and some of those have shone a light into the darker side of Alonso.

Ricciardo did beat Vettel in Vettel’s last season at Red Bull but I think Max has caused him to bottle it and go to Renault, he’s had terrible luck this season and no doubt is a great overtaker.

 

[ilc72]

I think being not good enough got to Vettel.

While his surname is derived from Le Clerc, he spells it Leclerc, without an upper case C . I think he's in danger of being remarkably overrated. As yet, he's a quality lower tier driver. I hope he'll impress next season but it's a bit early to be chalking him up as a definite future champion.

Stoffel reminds me of Alex Wurz; a remarkable guest performance, followed by a mediocre regular seat.

Very good post on the latter points, I still think you’re being harsh on Vettel as he’s still a four-time WDC, he got the RBR seat on some amazing performances in Toro Rosso.

Leclerc has shown definite promise in his rookie year, there is no such thing as a definite future WDC, but he’s earned the chance of a Ferrari drive and even in qualifying last Saturday the lap in Q2 showed amazing maturity.

In F1 the only true benchmark is against your teammate. Beyond that there are so many different factors that make judgements between drivers/teams difficult and only the true greats transcend themselves by winning the WDC in cars that are not the best.

Lewis did that in 2008, Schumacher did it also, he dragged Ferrari from also fans and won championships against cars that were better.

I would love Hamilton to finish his career at Ferrari, but with FOM seriously considering 24-25 races a season I don’t think that will ever happen. I know Hamilton has a contract for 2019 and 2020 but I wouldn’t bet my house on him seeing that out.

For what it’s worth I think Vettel will end up back at RBR and Max may well end up at Ferrari.

 

[rubberduck]

Despite being a Vettel fan, I'll hold my hand up and say Hamilton just about shaded it this year in terms of his performances. He did have best car though which meant less pressure.

 

[The_Abyss]

lol

 

[GravyMonster]

Always have to give a backhander when complimenting someone, even if he didn't actually have the best car for two thirds of the season.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

Just saw the season of two halves F1 post. Didn’t realise max outscored vettel in the second half and that Hamilton accumulated 245 points. Such an impressive achievement.