Another school shooting in the US

drunkenmaster said:
blah blah
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Guns make it easy to kill people, everything you said is harder to do.

I could kill you pretty easy if I had a gun, let's try that now with a baseball bat, you got a chance now to defend yourself.

Really, everything you said, you haven't really thought about because all the ways you have listed, I can think of ways to live and defend myself.

People will always kill people, we just have to make it harder to do.
 
estebanrey said:
There are plenty of military weapons the public doesn't have access to, like nuclear weapons, fighter jets, tanks and yet none of them have fallen into the hands of criminals so the argument that criminal would all have them is not really true. It's about manufacturer and availability.
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With the exception of nukes, the other things throughout history have been sold to nations who have later been classified as criminals/terrorists/hostile states. As for military equipment falling into the hands of civilian criminals, it's rare because they have never had the right to such equipment. Where as most guns in the US they have the right to own, and even if you could remove that right now and place most guns into an illegal list along with nukes, jets and tanks then you have the issue that the guns are already out there!

If all guns had the same gun control laws as US military weapons from the very start, then perhaps they would very rarely get into the hands of criminals, but that's not the case, and regardless of how the law changes you can't un-ring a bell.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Yup, its like crazy difficult to grab alcohol, cloth/rags and a lighter.... oh wait, its not.
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So your logic is because there are other ways to kill people we shouldn't bother trying to tackle one major causes because alternatives exist?

Apart from the fact a cloth and a lighter have a non-lethal primary purpose (unlike a gun which is designed specifically to kill) do you seriously think you'd have anywhere near the same success rate (for lack of a better term) trying to kill people en-masse as you would with a semi-automatic rifle?

Really? You think they carry the same threat level?

drunkenmaster said:
Also your assuming that the majority of these incidents aren't premeditated and planned.
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No I'm not. I'm pointing out that some (probably most) are. No where did I claim all school shootings weren't planned.

drunkenmaster said:
"Impossible" to snap and kill people en masse easily without a gun is a massive over reaching statement that is patently false.
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Which is something I never said. I said it was impossible to just snap and make a bomb (which it is for anyone that isn't an explosives expert who just happens to have all the ingredients needed in his house).

drunkenmaster said:
They use guns in the Us because they have access to them, if they didn't, the people who go crazy and decide to kill people WOULD use other weapons and be JUST as successful, maybe more so.
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Then why is America's murder rate one of the highest in the world? Why are they top by a country mile of the school massacres table?

drunkenmaster said:
Imagine if this guy didn't have a gun, and decided to go to his local gas station, fill up a bunch of gas cans, go over to the school, set alight to a gas can at every exit and watch the entire building go up with EVERYONE inside being killed.
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Did you capitlise 'everyone' to show how silly your argument is. Buildings and schools tend to have a fire exits, they weren't locked in a straw room with no exists.

Also, I'm pretty sure a man strategically setting petrol cans up round a school building would be stopped long before he'd be in a position to set fire to them.

drunkenmaster said:
People are focusing on the guns because they are there and thats whats used, the guns don't cause the crime and there are a ridiculous number of other ways to kill people without much planning. Someone could simply drive through a fence and over dozens of kids on the playground, petrol in a smallish bottle taken into an office building, someone sprays it around a bit and in stairwells and sets a fire... is unfortunately ridiculously easy and could be incredibly deadly. With an office block a single man with a gun would be hard pressed to go floor to floor and murder everyone in a 20 storey building, with 30 seconds he may be able to start a fire that kills everyone though.
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So should Americans be allowed hand grenades, military grade C4 explosives, nuclear tipped rockets and launchers?

Why not? After all there are plenty of other ways to kill a large number of people so why not go the whole hog and say anyone can own any weapon they want?

drunkenmaster said:
We like to PRETEND that without guns, these tragedies wouldn't happen, because we like to PRETEND that it isn't true that anyone we ever bump into could be a crazy guy on a bad day who could kill us and/or everyone we care about.
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I think the stats are clear that without guns (coupled with a gun loving culture) there would be far LESS of these incidents.

Again the argument that you can't stop all massacres means you might as well have a situation where anyone is capable of committing one is asinine.

drunkenmaster said:
If we demonize guns, because we don't have guns in the UK, WE feel safe because we PRETEND the chances of mass killings is stupidly low as it would be really difficult without guns. The quite un-nerving, scary reality is, anyone can kill a bunch of people anywhere with very little forethought and with relative ease.
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Guns have almost no point other than to kill other living things, they should be demonised to an extent (obviously I'm not naive to think they have no legitimate uses in farming and animal control).
 
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Yes guns don't make it easier at all to kill people, guns are pretty much just a novelty in the military where all the real fighting is done with swords, shields and armoured knights with lances.

What nonsense, the reason the firearm is so popular in warfare is because it is the most cost-effective and lethal device currently available actively designed to kill as many people as possible from as safe a distance as possible.

Anyone attempting to tell you that a knife, or samurai sword or whatever would be just as effective is an idiot frankly.

Though I think the example of someone being able to purchase gallons of petrol, drive into a school grounds, start unloading dozens of petrol cans then wander around a school completely unopposed or unidentified while pouring petrol everywhere and setting petrol bombs as an analogy for walking into a school with concealed pistols and opening fire has to be one of my favourite idiot examples yet.
 
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The focus should be how can someone be so detached from emotion that they can kill 5-10 year old children.
Yet immediatley the pointless gun debate ensues. There's arguments all over the world for and against the various gun laws. I don't think it's the issue in this or any case like it.
 
Seems the gunman posted this on 4chan on the 12th.

He posted "I'm going to kill lmyself on Friday and it will make the news, be watching at 9 am."

There is a screenshot of it, but it's graphic, if the mods allow it, I can post?
 
Domo said:
The focus should be how can someone be so detached from emotion that they can kill 5-10 year old children.
Yet immediatley the pointless gun debate ensues. There's arguments all over the world for and against the various gun laws. I don't think it's the issue in this or any case like it.
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It's because it is seen as the best/easiest answer to keep people happy.

Leader "We will ban guns"
Most People "yeyyyy"

Leader "We will conduct research to see why someone would do this and try to prevent it in future"
Most People "Booo guns are evil boooo"
 
Rich_L said:
Though I think the example of someone being able to purchase gallons of petrol, drive into a school grounds, start unloading dozens of petrol cans then wander around a school completely unopposed or unidentified while pouring petrol everywhere and setting petrol bombs as an analogy for walking into a school with concealed pistols and opening fire has to be one of my favourite idiot examples yet.
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Mine too. A few months ago I walked into a school's playing field whilst looking for my lost cat, I was confronted by a security guard and a teacher within about a minute.

Had I had petrol cans that would have been it, bundled to the ground and police called. If I'd have had a gun I could have shot them and proceeded to to a classroom.
 
cymatty said:
It's because it is seen as the best/easiest answer to keep people happy.

Leader "We will ban guns"
Most People "yeyyyy"

Leader "We will conduct research to see why someone would do this and try to prevent it in future"
Most People "Booo guns are evil boooo"
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It's possible to ban or severely restrict firearms.

It's impossible (at the moment) to prevent people going mental unpredictably.

Of course we should we research mental health and how people tick but I don't think you could start a programme like that with any confidence that you'll find some holy grail and prevent people from having unannounced mental breakdowns.
 
Cannot fathom what it must be like for the parents of those pupils :( Imagine dropping off your son/daughter at an elementary school and being told at work that there has been a mass-shooting. I just cannot fathom.
 
Wow... so some dude shoots some kids, then the internet Facebooks someone else with the same name and posts his photos everywhere... disgraceful

.. apparently CNN put the guy's photo on the TV too.
 

Shall we expect a copycat shooting within the next few weeks partly as a result of the way the news covers this? :(
 
drunkenmaster said:
We like to PRETEND that without guns, these tragedies wouldn't happen, because we like to PRETEND that it isn't true that anyone we ever bump into could be a crazy guy on a bad day who could kill us and/or everyone we care about.

If we demonize guns, because we don't have guns in the UK, WE feel safe because we PRETEND the chances of mass killings is stupidly low as it would be really difficult without guns. The quite un-nerving, scary reality is, anyone can kill a bunch of people anywhere with very little forethought and with relative ease.
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Why on earth would we demonize guns. Guns are fantastic, and have a multitude of practical use.

Especially those compact assault rifles, those cool pistols, like the old classic, the glock 17. And not forgetting smgs with those nifty extended mags. I could get one of those, do a few mods, and it's as good as the real thing.

Firearms are so reliable nowadays. You could fire a thousand rounds and never really worry about this thing falling apart. And so small and light... Hell, I could a whole arsenal of weaponry in my sports bag, nobody ever knows.

Knifes are just too much hassle, you know. People run away, I get out of breath, and it's a little bit too personal for my taste. And getting close to your target also brings its own problems. They sometimes fight back and can be a disaster.

Bow and Arrow? Do I look like ***** Robin Hood?

Gasoline, well, It's heavy, it stinks, and it's actually quite dangerous. Plus, some jackass might notice something. Takes a while to go off, and with all those alarm systems nowadays... You can't be always be sure.

That, or a home made explosives. But it's so easy to screw up and look like a ***, or blow my own face off. Look at all those idiots around the world who can't even light their own shoes on fire. Bombs are a tricky business, no mistake.

No guns for me. Everytime. I just go to my uncle's, stock up, get some ammo, and off I go on my merry way.
 
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