'Anti' Isalm cartoons....

[sdfuk]

Spawn

I do not think that most people hate Muslims. 99.9% of people in the UK have a live and let live attitude. I'm a Christian and I do not hate Muslims. What I have a problem with is ANY extremist group going round doing what the hell they like whilst the authorities do absolutely nothing about it. I put those who advocate white supremacy in with the terrorists who bombed New York/ London - they are all full of hatred. If a new group started up tomorrow demanding the killing/extermination of Asians or Afro Caribbeans then they would be put in the same camp and should be stopped immediatley.

Wouldn't it be great if a spaceship landed on Earth tomorrow and an alien popped out and said we were put here by something else other that a God - most amusing. That would P*** on a a lot of peopls fireworks!

 

[Yas786]

Are you going to report those who asked you to go to your Imam, if not the Police?

FWIW, I sympathise with what you've done to combat the ill-feeling put forward by the usual Forum Racists... as it goes its not just the muslims that don't take much notice of them.

No why should i??, as far as im concerned they asked not only me but plenty of other people in the mosque on friday. If anyone it was the Imam who asked us if we wanted to go and show our support and i chose not to. Why should i get the police involved??, as far as im concerned no one broke the law that i could see. If people were breaking the law down at regents st mosque then thats up to the authorities to deal with, not me...like i said im not getting involved in all that tbh.

 

[Sequoia]

Thank you mate, im glad you can sort of sympathise with me on this. I have many a time here and in SC explaining the true meaning of islam...not only me but quite a few muslim members as well...most of them have now disappeared because no one is willing to listen to us. So thats why i made that comment that whats the point, when we cant even be heard here...what chance have we got in the real world....not much especially when it comes to the media etc.

Like you just said...how the **** should i know about these extremists, im not one of them. And yes im getting extremely fed up of the usual suspects making the same stupid ignorant comments as per usual.

Just for some of your info, i was actually asked to attend these so called rallies and i refused point blank....reason being is that i have much more pressing matters at hand ie the phone tapping thread...i think that takes much more precedence than this tbh.

Oh I sympathise a considerable amount, Spawn.

But there's another way of looking at this, too.

However offensive those cartoons are, waving placards around calling for beheadings, and more 7/7 is also highly offensive, and highly offensive to millions of people that weren't behind the publishing of those cartoons. It is provocative in the extreme, and it brings the dispute onto the streets of this country where, remember, the cartoons weren't published and, as far as I know, still haven’t been republished. Yet, the placard waving is here.

So, what we seem to have is a small number (well, a few hundred, but small in percentage terms) advocating what boils down to murdering our citizens because someone else published cartoons. This, of course, is what sparked my question in another thread about whether religious obligations or secular laws take precedence.


So, what we now have is offensive demonstrations on the streets of this country about cartoons published elsewhere. I have difficulty thinking of a better way of promoting the arguments, or profile, of racist hotheads than placards calling for death to Europeans and more 7/7.

While I absolutely understand and agree that the vast bulk of the Muslim community in the UK are NOT doing this (even if they are incredibly offended by those cartoons), and have NO obligation to keep denouncing it, the risk is that perception of the majority staying silent will be taken as tacit support.

There is certainly (in my view) no obligation on the moderate, decent Muslim majority to keep denouncing the extremists, but I can't help but think it might still be the pragmatic thing to do, because these things have a way of building resentment and tensions and it's likely to be the moderate, decent majority that suffer the backlash, if it ever comes to that. And, the way this situation is developing, I'm starting to get worried that it just actually might come to that.

And if it does, it will be the extremist, poop-stirring, extremist minorities (on whatever side of the disagreement) that will have one.

Are the placard-waving extremists going to pay much heed to what I, as a non-Muslim, have to say about this? I rather doubt it. But .... if thousands of ordinary, man-in-the-street Muslims were to make their disapproval very plain, maybe it would send the vocal extremist minority the message to shut the hell up. The community may be under no obligation to do this, and have no responsibility for the ravings of a few, but .... who else can do it?

As I said, I really sympathise. But a case can be made that a pragmatic view is that keeping quiet won't help, and might fuel the crisis.


PS. I understand if you don't want to respond to this. After all, you've already said you have other things on your mind.

 

[Yas786]

^^^ I agree with you Sequoia, i dont condone what these idiots are doing ie calling for more violence and waving stupid placards around with messages that say death to all non muslims.
But a lot of muslims are voicing their opinions but sadly these extremists do hear us but they take no heed...so other than going around to each and every one of them and chopping their heads off or killing them.....what can we do??...again theres not much us decent muslims can do and as its been perviously stated...most of us have jobs and families to look after and go to rather than get caught up in these utterly ridiculous rallies which to me serve absolutely no purpose.
Everytime something bad happens ie extremists chop someones head off...you do get muslims who do voice their opinion and express outrage at these events. Take for instance the 9/11 attacks...a lot of muslims voiced outrage. How about a few yrs ago the british fella who was taken hostage in iraq...a few muslim members from the uk went over there to try and reason with these idiots...did it help??...no not really...time and time again we are criticised for not doing anything and when we do...its just not enough is it??. Whats that saying...oh damned if we do damned if we dont...simple as that.

I can see where your coming from sequoia but its a much more complex matter than just getting up and saying enough is enough, sure the extremists hear us but they dont take any notice because simply put their voices seem to be stronger than the decent muslims. Granted keeping quiet wont help but a lot of muslim people that i know are just fed up of all the bad media we are getting at the moment and we just choose to ignore it and keep quiet. It makes for a simpler life for them and myself, like i said i havent yet been abused for being a muslim on the street or anywhere.
I for one have always made my views in here quite loudly about how i see islam and these extremists but as said before....it just doesnt make any difference whatsoever.


One other point i must mention to the people in here...i can bet you that most of those muslim protestors that were in london and around the world....dont really have a clue about what they are protesting about..they may say its the cartoons they are protesting against but theres a much more important reason behind this, which is free speech and the right to it. But i can bet you most of them numbnuts dont even know the real reason for these protests are.

 

[Sleepy]

Are you going to report those who asked you to go to your Imam, if not the Police?

For what, inviting him to a demonstration?

 

[Yas786]

Spawn

I do not think that most people hate Muslims. 99.9% of people in the UK have a live and let live attitude. I'm a Christian and I do not hate Muslims. What I have a problem with is ANY extremist group going round doing what the hell they like whilst the authorities do absolutely nothing about it. I put those who advocate white supremacy in with the terrorists who bombed New York/ London - they are all full of hatred. If a new group started up tomorrow demanding the killing/extermination of Asians or Afro Caribbeans then they would be put in the same camp and should be stopped immediatley.

Wouldn't it be great if a spaceship landed on Earth tomorrow and an alien popped out and said we were put here by something else other that a God - most amusing. That would P*** on a a lot of peopls fireworks!

I think you will find that your quite wrong, whether or not people actually freely admit they hate muslims is another thing. Take a look at the BNP for a start, they hate us but they dont say it so blatantly...they have their PR machine which does a fantastic job of sugar coating their hatred towards muslims. Doesnt matter what Dmpoole says, as hes a bnp member here...to me they hate muslims. What i find is a lot of people here and in real life will either say yes they hate muslims or keep quiet...to me the majority keeps quiet.

Ask me if i hate Jews???, ill just say no comment...that way im free from any sort of interrogation by anyone...i have my own views about them and i will and do keep them to myself. I just like a simple life tbh, and im sure a lot of people in the uk feel the same way but theres always a few that will shout out how much they hate muslims....just like these extremists who like to shout out at how much they hate the west etc etc. Swings and roundabouts really if u ask me.

 

[Dingo]

Ummm i think judging by this here thread and the one in SC i can categorically say there are quite a few muslim/islam haters in here and it doesnt take a genius to figure that out

You have 14 pages of indignation here

but you won't do it sat on your arse and bitching about how your people are "misunderstood"!, or as so many muslims do, telling us how no-one loves you

Perceptions are funny things aren't they....you read these forums and the comments on them and come up with the word hate whilst I mentioned Indignation. With the odd exception I believe most people who have posted in either of the threads have not expressed hatred for either Islam or Muslims but their indignation at their actions.


What they have done is expressed their angst and disbelief that demonstrations of the kind we are witnessing around the world by some muslims should a} happen in the first place and b} that the relevant Governments do not seem to be taking any action against this minority of fanatics.

Look at the quotes above and tell me what the irony is......in case you can't see it, you have reacted exactly as the perception that many will have of you (ie) nobody loves us=everyone hates us.


Doesn't take a genius to work it out were your words, the trouble is, it does take a genius to look beyond a stagnant monosyllabic approach to all the ills in our lives and take the time to really consider what people are saying.....you may be listening but you definately are not hearing.

Thankfully they are now a part of ever increasing ignore list but like i said it really doesnt bother me if forum members here are hating us muslims, no skin off my nose because simply put i dont know them from jack and they dont know me from jack either:

And therin lies the rub doesn't it?. Two mentions of hate in the same post and further thought in your mind that perhaps you are not part of this society(can be a metaphor for the forums), a feeling of further alienation and perhaps in a few years even a hatred of this society that simply doesn't understand you and doesn't appear to listen. Isn't that the exact formula, a feeling of helplessness and persecution, that leads to fanaticism from moderation?.


Your'e right of course, we don't know you as an individual, so it would be difficult for most people to hate you. Making a judgement on the other hand, by reading what you post and your attitudes to situations is entirely different. You appear to have decided the answer is to have a burgeoning ignore list and validate this by deciding it is justified because everyone hates you (now from which region of the world have we heard that before?) but the truth is that you as a moderate muslim see no reason to correct the ills of some supporters of your faith by direct action and seem instead to prefer to put your head in the sand an hope it all goes away......as a metaphor for this action you (moderate muslims) are the parent of an unruly child (fanatics) who if it continues to get it's own way will rule your household for years to come.....and it is simply inexcusable for you to come back and denounce the child as not of your flesh because it has developed into a monster!.


Wohoo's post on the other hand was, in my opinion, a mature and well thought out post and he appears to be attempting to take some affirmative action, albeit with little success at the moment, but if more moderate muslims were to join him then the pressure to print would increase exponentially, and then perhaps we would see the "true" face of Islam.

By the way your quite right, seems like a lot of people here are nothing more than media sheep...following the flock ...can anyone say...baaa baaa

This comment might be amusing if it weren't for the actions from some muslims we have seen in the media who appear to have flocked to a cause with little regard to the potential consequences, The sheep we all have to worry about are the Black ones within the muslim community before they decide to change into wolves and devour your faith from the inside.


ps Wohoo, if you read this can you post some links to your articles (not published I know but if you have copies) or if not perhaps post one here (Mods permitting) so we can see and hear the voice of a moderate muslim....would make a refreshing change I think

 

[Chronos-X]

That to me sounds like you have an inherant view of Jews which doesn't suggest anything particularly positive to me!

 

[JohnnyG]

I think you will find that your quite wrong, whether or not people actually freely admit they hate Muslims is another thing...

Oh dear, do you actually believe that most people do hate muslims then?
If so, as your post seems to suggest, I hope it's just wild paranoia on your behalf & not something that is inherent in many other Muslims as it's complete rubbish

 

[Yas786]

That to me sounds like you have an inherant view of Jews which doesn't suggest anything particularly positive to me!

Your right i do but how i choose to see is up to me, as for positive??...well i havent said anything negative about them so how you came to that conclusion is beyond me

Oh dear, do you actually believe that most people do hate muslims then?
If so, as your post seems to suggest, I hope it's just wild paranoia on your behalf & not something that is inherent in many other Muslims as it's complete rubbish

Yes i do and some of the comments in here prove that

And no its nothing to do with paranoia . You may think its complete rubbish but i personally dont tbh. Like i said a lot of people remain silent, it would be interesting to see how many people in the UK dislike us and im sure are more than plenty that do. Its a free country isnt it??, everyone is entitled to their views, how they choose to portray or air them is what causes a lot of tensions etc. Same goes for the muslims as well, im sure there are quite a few that dislike the West and non muslims...they just choose to air them in a most stupid way if u ask me.

 

[cleanbluesky]

Just for some of your info, i was actually asked to attend these so called rallies and i refused point blank....reason being is that i have much more pressing matters at hand ie the phone tapping thread...i think that takes much more precedence than this tbh.

WTF - you associate with these people?

 

[Yas786]

snip

Fair enough thats how you see it and ive stated on how i see it and im happy with my stance on the matter. I dont feel any guilt on my stance and neither will i be made to feel guilty.

 

[Yas786]

WTF - you associate with these people?

Associate with who exactly???, who are these people you talk about??

Btw your sig...does that mean your half dane now???

 

[Chronos-X]

Your right i do but how i choose to see is up to me, as for positive??...well i havent said anything negative about them so how you came to that conclusion is beyond me

Ask me if i hate Jews???, ill just say no comment...that way im free from any sort of interrogation by anyone...i have my own views about them and i will and do keep them to myself.

Now that had me thinking

1) where did jews come into it

2) why say something like that?

3) why say something like that if there isnt something malicious behind it?

Spawn, make no mistake I'm not against you - I'm very much a fencesitter in this argument and I endevour to see both sides of the argument, its just that there seemed to be an implied, if not stated, dislike for a race that has very much in common with your own.

 

[cleanbluesky]

Associate with who exactly???, who are these people you talk about??

Btw your sig...does that mean your half dane now???

You said you were asked to go to the rallys. Did they have a placard for you or were you epxect to bring your own?

 

[JohnnyG]

whether or not people actually freely admit they hate muslims is another thing...What i find is a lot of people here and in real life will either say yes they hate muslims or keep quiet...to me the majority keeps quiet.

Like i said a lot of people remain silent, it would be interesting to see how many people in the UK dislike us and im sure are more than plenty that do.

You're assuming that just because someone doesn't air views to the contrary that makes them Muslim haters, that is paranoia I'm afraid mate
You won't air your views about Jews, does that make you a Jew hater?

 

[Chronos-X]

I don't think I'd take offense at someone demonstrating that they didnt like the idea of the cartoons in the paper, regardless of whether I agreed with them.

Certain members of the crowd, now thats a different matter - who's tarring who with the same brush?

 

[Yas786]

Now that had me thinking

1) where did jews come into it

2) why say something like that?

3) why say something like that if there isnt something malicious behind it?

Spawn, make no mistake I'm not against you - I'm very much a fencesitter in this argument and I endevour to see both sides of the argument, its just that there seemed to be an implied, if not stated, dislike for a race that has very much in common with your own.

I was making a point in relation to my post, its obviously gone off topic now because of that...apologies for that. Like i said you can look at my point in any way you like, thats your choice.

 

[cleanbluesky]

I don't think I'd take offense at someone demonstrating that they didnt like the idea of the cartoons in the paper, regardless of whether I agreed with them.

Certain members of the crowd, now thats a different matter - who's tarring who with the same brush?

We have seen many a protest. We have seen religious protest. What we dont want to see is death threats on placards, because that is not a mere protest

 

[Yas786]

You said you were asked to go to the rallys. Did they have a placard for you or were you epxect to bring your own?

LOL ummm ill just take that comment as i looked at first, with a pinch of salt. Nice try though