Any religious people watch the Wonders of Life last night?

Robosapien · 2 Feb 2013 at 01:30

Jason2 said:
Since when does disorder become order? By trial and error? That's stupid. I mean, take DNA. How did evolution know what to code? It had absolutely nothing to go by. And this process certainly doesn't possess a mind.

Dr. Bolton Davidheiser wrote:

"In the case of living things there is needed BESIDES a source of energy, one or more of the following: a genetic code, an instinct, intelligence."

In the beginning God CREATED... Genesis 1:1

A genetic "code" - developed through a series of chance chemical reactions, deriving energy and raw material in the environment without the need for an external 'hand'. We see more or less the same genetic code in all living things, with some slight variation - this adds credence to the notion not only of a common ancestor, and a continuing single process that has diverged into many branches according to successful interaction with environment, but also as to the rarity of the event happening. It is chemistry, giving turn to whilst underpinning, a biological mechanism - it is not "information" in the traditional sense, nor is it a divine "instruction booklet" handed down from God.

Instinct - bluntly, simply a label given by humans to the observation of biological mechanisms at work, performing innate behaviour due to environmental stimulus.

Intelligence - as above, in relation to cerebral processes. Again, developed as biological mechanism through evolution.

Today, as so much time has passed, we see only the success stories of this process. It seems odd to marvel at life but not the other 'creations' of the universe. We see the chemical reactions that failed to give rise to biological mechanisms around us all the time. We don't see the failed biological mechanisms that fell at the reproductive hurdle, because that's long decayed. Surprise surprise, we see the success stories. To me life is a process no more miraculous than the formation of plastic because it seems so obvious that it can arise from chemistry alone. It doesn't 'strive out' with some inherent sense of intelligence or instinct to preserve, replicate or feed itself - it just gets lucky, every time. We are the result of a series of fortunate chances incident (evidently) on one particular strain. Why does everyone marvel at it when it's an obvious (albeit timely) consequence of chances given the right conditions. There is complexity absolutely everywhere, not just in life.

d_brennen · 2 Feb 2013 at 01:31

Angilion said:
Your interpretation is like a puddle of water in a hole in the ground having faith that the existence of its gods is proven by the hole being exactly the right shape for the puddle.

You're not even clutching at straws. You're strawing at clutches, which is as meaningless as it sounds, and the clutches you're strawing at aren't even there.

If I didn't like my Sonic sigs so much that quote would be going right in there.

Angilion · 2 Feb 2013 at 01:38

Jason2 said:
No way fella. You, like all the other atheists on this thread, emphatically declared that God does not exist.

Once again, you're lying or deluded. What you have just said happened did not happen. It's as simple as that.

If you really believe your own posts, seek help now. I'm serious - if you really believe your own posts then you're hallucinating and that's a serious medical issue that you should seek medical help for. This isn't the place for medical advice, so we can't help you here.

Angilion · 2 Feb 2013 at 01:41

d_brennen said:
If I didn't like my Sonic sigs so much that quote would be going right in there.

Someone else came up with the puddle image. At least, I think it was someone else. It's pencilled into my memory as something I read rather than something I came up with, but I've no memory of where I read it.

The rest is mine, though.

EDIT: I went looking. Apparently it was Douglas Adams who came up with the puddle analogy. It stuck in my head because it's such a good way to explain why that way of thinking is so completely wrong. I still don't remember where I read it, though.

Robosapien · 2 Feb 2013 at 01:44

Urgannagru said:
Thanks you much, that puddle analogy is perfect, was really struggling with putting that in words.

Yup, spot on Angilion.

"I don't know how the universe came into existence or even if it did. If time is part of the universe then the universe has existed for all time and therefore never came into existence because it has always existed. In order for the universe to have come into existence there would have to have been some time before the universe."

Perfect.

Jason2 · 2 Feb 2013 at 01:47

"The fanatical atheists, are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who--in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'--cannot hear the music of the spheres." -- Albert Einstein

Raikiri · 2 Feb 2013 at 01:50

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein

Jason2 · 2 Feb 2013 at 01:53

Angilion said:
Once again, you're lying or deluded. What you have just said happened did not happen. It's as simple as that.

If you really believe your own posts, seek help now. I'm serious - if you really believe your own posts then you're hallucinating and that's a serious medical issue that you should seek medical help for. This isn't the place for medical advice, so we can't help you here.

Reported. You're coward Angilion. If you wish to say the same thing to my face please arrange to meet me.

Jason2 · 2 Feb 2013 at 01:54

Angilion, can you prove you exist and not actually hallucinating?

Jason2 · 2 Feb 2013 at 01:56

Raikiri said:
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein

He never said he didn't believe in a creator. Just not a personal God as the bible depicts.

d_brennen · 2 Feb 2013 at 01:58

Jason2 said:
Reported. You're coward Angilion. If you wish to say the same thing to my face please arrange to meet me.

You stated

No way fella. You, like all the other atheists on this thread, emphatically declared that God does not exist.

This is not true in the slightest. I know you like to make sweeping statements and find comfort in catch all solutions but this isn't the case.

Do you want to meet Angilion face to face so you can turn the other cheek?

Raikiri · 2 Feb 2013 at 01:59

Jason2 said:
Reported. You're coward Angilion. If you wish to say the same thing to my face please arrange to meet me.

You're being a worse christian than most atheists in this thread, it's quite bemusing.

Anyway, he's quite right. That post was in reply to me and when asked where I "emphatically declared that God does not exist" you chose to ignore me. Because I hadn't, you had lied.

Robosapien · 2 Feb 2013 at 02:02

Jason2 said:
Angilion, can you prove you exist and not actually hallucinating?

I think I must be hallucinating your posts. They're unbelievable. Epic troll btw.

Urgannagru · 2 Feb 2013 at 02:05

... and so it turns into a poo flinging contest... and he says that we don't have a common ancestor with monkeys

Jason2 · 2 Feb 2013 at 02:09

Robosapien said:
I think I must be hallucinating your posts. They're unbelievable. Epic troll btw.

Really? So what about cotard delusion? How does one verify that one exists?

Robosapien · 2 Feb 2013 at 02:12

Jason2 said:
Really? So what about cotard delusion? How does one verify that one exists?

Well I suppose the first thing it proves is that we're all highly susceptible/fallible to delusions.

It could all very well be an illusion for all I know. I don't rule out the possibility.

I suppose you could draw from it the notion of a soul, awareness, consciousness, sense of identity, sense of reality, all derive from a biological "machinery" (brain) that must have a physical presence. I.e. Once certain parts of us start breaking down, we begin to loose our characteristic behaviours and actions, personalities, so that for me makes it hard to conceive of the soul as 'living on' in an afterlife. On the otherhand you have people with half their brains missing seemingly functioning normally.

Urgannagru · 2 Feb 2013 at 02:22

Aye the same as whether there is a creator. It may be the case but there is no reason for it to be. Either way it doesn't make a difference to me and I can't test for it, so may as well stop worrying and get on with enjoying life.

Angilion · 2 Feb 2013 at 02:23

Jason2 said:
Reported. You're coward Angilion. If you wish to say the same thing to my face please arrange to meet me.

Oooh, you're such a hard man. I'm all turned on now.

You're very silly and I'm laughing at you. You may be able to do your bullying by proxy and have me suspended for stating something provably true, but that won't change the fact that you are repeatedly claiming that things have happened that have not happened and that you are therefore either lying or hallucinating.

Urgannagru · 2 Feb 2013 at 02:25

Robosapien said:
Well I suppose the first thing it proves is that we're all highly susceptible/fallible to delusions.

It could all very well be an illusion for all I know. I don't rule out the possibility.

I suppose you could draw from it the notion of a soul, awareness, consciousness, sense of identity, sense of reality, all derive from a biological "machinery" (brain) that must have a physical presence. I.e. Once certain parts of us start breaking down, we begin to loose our characteristic behaviours and actions, personalities, so that for me makes it hard to conceive of the soul as 'living on' in an afterlife. On the otherhand you have people with half their brains missing seemingly functioning normally.

Aye the mind is a complex thing. But as you say it is affected by physical things such as disease, drugs and physical damage to the brain.

Angilion · 2 Feb 2013 at 02:36

Raikiri said:
You're being a worse christian than most atheists in this thread, it's quite bemusing.

Anyway, he's quite right. That post was in reply to me and when asked where I "emphatically declared that God does not exist" you chose to ignore me. Because I hadn't, you had lied.

It was even worse than that because he explicitly added that every atheist in this thread had done so, a statement that is even more obviously untrue.

I was being charitable by allowing for the other possibility - that he really thought he had seen every atheist in this thread doing so, i.e. that he was hallucinating multiple posts that never happened. It's not the first time that he's claimed things have happened that have not happened and it can't just be an oversight, so it's either lying or hallucination.