Are earnings too low / living costs getting too high??

BuffetSlayer · 24 Apr 2017 at 13:42

rogan said:
But why remove yourself from enjoying life to spend all your time saving to move out, and then living in squalor moved out because all your money is going on bills?

I don't blame any young people on <£20k these days for living at home with no immediate aim to move out, cost of living with current rent is so high for a completely bland lifestyle.

If I had the choice between my parents house, a holiday a year and a social life vs a crappy shared flat, beans on toast and netflixing myself into oblivion, I know what I'd be picking

I guess it boils down to standing on your own two feet and being a responsible adult.

I often find it is those same people who say they can't afford to move out into a rental or buy a house which is usually untrue.

They can, they just don't want to.

Their choice, of course, and if they are happy with the arrangement then fair enough. But it does always feel to me like a bit of an excuse. A crutch to lean on to justify their lack of taking responsibility for their life and cracking on.

It is strange that some people get on and achieve and others spend their life saying I cant (meaning I don't want to) and trying to blame someone or something else for their inaction.

But to each their own.

ci_newman · 24 Apr 2017 at 13:50

nightwish said:
By 20, they are adults and should have learnt financial independence already, albeit with smaller sums. At that point (to my mind) you shouldn't be messing them about like that, not on something as significant as a house deposit. I want to be a straight shooter with my kids, so they can talk to me and trust me.

I'm not judging though - there is no right answer, and I don't have kids yet, so I don't have to deal with the practicalities!

We don't teach financial responsibility in schools in the UK though, the only way kids are going to learn financial independence is to start experiencing it and dealing with it themselves and because of that many of them will stumble. But if you are charging them rent and you don't "need it" to contribute towards household bills, it is just another way to look out for them. Many parents are already gifting deposits to their children to help them get on the housing ladder, this is just a different way of approaching it. My children will be my children until I die, I'll always do what I can to protect them if they need it.

(of course, I will do what I can to impart good financial sense in my kids - I don't only rely on schools)

The_Abyss · 24 Apr 2017 at 14:03

ci_newman said:
(of course, I will do what I can to impart good financial sense in my kids - I don't only rely on schools)

That's just as well, as schools don't teach it!

nightwish · 24 Apr 2017 at 14:12

ci_newman said:
the only way kids are going to learn financial independence is to start experiencing it and dealing with it themselves

Agree 100%. But this should start at age 5, not 20, and if the schools won't do it, then it falls to the parents. Setting the right amount of pocket money (not too much, not too little), maybe adding "interest" to kids savings, paid chores, etc. Of course you can still help them out as much as you physically can later, but the real lessons need to be learnt early, or chances are they never really will be.

e: And if you have succeeded in passing those lessons on, then at age 20 you can have an honest, adult-to-adult conversation about what you are willing and able to contribute. No smoke and mirrors required.

Rroff · 24 Apr 2017 at 14:12

BuffetSlayer said:
It is strange that some people get on and achieve and others spend their life saying I cant (meaning I don't want to) and trying to blame someone or something else for their inaction.

You get very different types of people some have very pro-active instincts while others very reactive and that isn't something people can just simply change, then you get the lazy or stupid people. Personally I struggled with a few things - my parents were very resistant to university due to some funny old fashioned/religious ideas (which these days is largely crucial for the kind of jobs I'm most suited to) which I had to fight against and I suffer to a minor degree with the whole ASD thing which has meant I've had to put in atleast twice as much effort to get to the same place as some people posting in this thread and I suspect many wouldn't have got as far as I have under the same conditions.

Six6siX · 24 Apr 2017 at 14:21

nightwish said:
Agree 100%. But this should start at age 5, not 20, and if the schools won't do it, then it falls to the parents. Setting the right amount of pocket money (not too much, not too little), maybe adding "interest" to kids savings, paid chores, etc. Of course you can still help them out as much as you physically can later, but the real lessons need to be learnt early, or chances are they never really will be.

Not sure that I agree with the wording in bold. It's reads as if the parents don't have a responsibility by default and they should only have to do themselves it if the schools fail to teach financial responsibility.

BuffetSlayer · 24 Apr 2017 at 14:25

Rroff said:
You get very different types of people some have very pro-active instincts while others very reactive and that isn't something people can just simply change, then you get the lazy or stupid people. Personally I struggled with a few things - my parents were very resistant to university due to some funny old fashioned/religious ideas (which these days is largely crucial for the kind of jobs I'm most suited to) which I had to fight against and I suffer to a minor degree with the whole ASD thing which has meant I've had to put in atleast twice as much effort to get to the same place as some people posting in this thread and I suspect many wouldn't have got as far as I have under the same conditions.

Never going to knock anyone for trying. What is the old saying? Imperfect action is better than perfect inaction.

I agree some folk have struggles but at least they try.

I'm talking more about the ones who don't even try and talk themselves out of something because of XYZ when what is really happening is they have a cushty life and want to keep it that way at someone elses expense

Rroff · 24 Apr 2017 at 14:31

BuffetSlayer said:
Never going to knock anyone for trying. What is the old saying? Imperfect action is better than perfect inaction.

I agree some folk have struggles but at least they try.

I'm talking more about the ones who don't even try and talk themselves out of something because of XYZ when what is really happening is they have a cushty life and want to keep it that way at someone elses expense

Reminds me of someone I used to work with - always moaning she wasn't getting anywhere nearer being promoted to a higher position while after 10 years in the job she still didn't know how to do many of the basic aspects of the job - not because they were particularly difficult or some other stumbling block but because she was too lazy to try and achieve those skills for herself and just turned to someone else for help each time - who sadly would just put themselves out to do what should have been her job for her.

nightwish · 24 Apr 2017 at 14:32

Six6siX said:
Not sure that I agree with the wording in bold. It's reads as if the parents don't have a responsibility by default and they should only have to do themselves it if the schools fail to teach financial responsibility.

Not my intention. The buck stops with the parents of course. Just responding to another poster's reference to schools not teaching financial responsibility.

OTOH (just to be devil's advocate, you understand

) schools are there for a reason, and they damn well should be teaching financial responsibility as far as I'm concerned. If they did, it would be less crucial for parents to do it all. After all, you don't have to teach your kids everything there is to know about mathematics, english literature or geography, do you? Not least because a parent can't be expected to be an expert in every subject.

Six6siX · 24 Apr 2017 at 14:39

nightwish said:
Not my intention. The buck stops with the parents of course. Just responding to another poster's reference to schools not teaching financial responsibility.

OTOH (just to be devil's advocate, you understand ) schools are there for a reason, and they damn well should be teaching financial responsibility as far as I'm concerned. If they did, it would be less crucial for parents to do it all. After all, you don't have to teach your kids everything there is to know about mathematics, english literature or geography, do you? Not least because a parent can't be expected to be an expert in every subject.

I'd be inclined to agree. It would be much more beneficial for society in general if schools did teach actual 'life skills' as well as core subjects. You wouldn't have kids coming out into the world not having a clue about banking, politics, finances - even at a very basic level and potentially being left to either learn bad habits or stumble through it themselves if they aren't fortunate enough to have any guidance.

krooton · 24 Apr 2017 at 14:46

Finances, nutrition, politics and first aid should all be core subjects, given that they all impact evey single person's lives at some point. Can't say trig has had much use once I finished high school...

V F · 24 Apr 2017 at 14:46

BuffetSlayer said:
I guess it boils down to standing on your own two feet and being a responsible adult.

I often find it is those same people who say they can't afford to move out into a rental or buy a house which is usually untrue.

They can, they just don't want to.

Their choice, of course, and if they are happy with the arrangement then fair enough. But it does always feel to me like a bit of an excuse. A crutch to lean on to justify their lack of taking responsibility for their life and cracking on.

It is strange that some people get on and achieve and others spend their life saying I cant (meaning I don't want to) and trying to blame someone or something else for their inaction.

But to each their own.

Thing is, there are people out there who had achieved but they lost a lot after the crash. Lost their big jobs even companies, houses and as well as lost marriages. Some lost so much they moved back in with their parents but too many seem to think everyone is 20 - 35 that hasn't left home gaming and watching tv while out drinking and partying.

Its easy to sit and criticize others.

BuffetSlayer · 24 Apr 2017 at 14:54

V F said:
Thing is, there are people out there who had achieved but they lost a lot after the crash. Lost their big jobs even companies, houses and as well as lost marriages. Some lost so much they moved back in with their parents but too many seem to think everyone is 20 - 35 that hasn't left home gaming and watching tv while out drinking and partying.

Its easy to sit and criticize others.

As I said, folk have struggles. The people you mention have gone out and done it. Sure, they fell on hard times and it's unfortunate but they went and tried. My guess is, and it is simply a guess, that they will be the kind of person to pick themselves up and try again eventually.

I agree not everyone is 20-35 and partying hard but a good many are but as you point out, each person is different.

d_brennen · 24 Apr 2017 at 15:05

I never grew up, I just got more post addressed to me

nightwish · 24 Apr 2017 at 15:09

d_brennen said:
I never grew up, I just got more post addressed to me

https://xkcd.com/616/

The_Abyss · 24 Apr 2017 at 17:37

Six6siX said:
I'd be inclined to agree. It would be much more beneficial for society in general if schools did teach actual 'life skills' as well as core subjects. You wouldn't have kids coming out into the world not having a clue about banking, politics, finances - even at a very basic level and potentially being left to either learn bad habits or stumble through it themselves if they aren't fortunate enough to have any guidance.

I completely agree. The State already accepts that not all parents are ideal role models, and unless they are educated elsewhere then the same problems are more likely than not going to manifest in their children.

b0rn2sk8 · 24 Apr 2017 at 17:59

nightwish said:
By 20, they are adults and should have learnt financial independence already, albeit with smaller sums. At that point (to my mind) you shouldn't be messing them about like that, not on something as significant as a house deposit. I want to be a straight shooter with my kids, so they can talk to me and trust me.

I'm not judging though - there is no right answer, and I don't have kids yet, so I don't have to deal with the practicalities!

The problem is with this is 50% go to uni and don't leave until they are 21.This is half of the reason why lots more young people cannot afford to save for homes/deposits as they are in education longer (on average) and once they leave and get a job with average pay they loose 9% of it to the student loans people before they even start. Once you take of PAYE, NI and say 4-5% for pension your take home pay suddenly becomes much less. It takes the best part of your life for a degree to pay off these days. Student debt is 3-4 times what it was just 15 years ago, it simply cannot be paid off quickly.

krooton said:
Finances, nutrition, politics and first aid should all be core subjects, given that they all impact evey single person's lives at some point. Can't say trig has had much use once I finished high school...

This should start at home, schools cannot teach everything and this sort of thing really needs to be tailored to your circumstances.

V F · 24 Apr 2017 at 23:44

b0rn2sk8 said:
This should start at home, schools cannot teach everything and this sort of thing really needs to be tailored to your circumstances.

I wish they taught nutrition at school. Oh I know schools cannot teach everything. They've proven they cannot even teach the basics.

regulus · 25 Apr 2017 at 00:46

nightwish said:
By 20, they are adults and should have learnt financial independence already, albeit with smaller sums. At that point (to my mind) you shouldn't be messing them about like that, not on something as significant as a house deposit. I want to be a straight shooter with my kids, so they can talk to me and trust me.

I'm not judging though - there is no right answer, and I don't have kids yet, so I don't have to deal with the practicalities!

I'm often moaned at on here for my preaching on financial responsibility and pointing out that your average person are about as stupid as amoebae when it comes to money, but I do think 20 is a bit young to fully understand and appreciate financial independence. The base theories perhaps or even a logical understanding, but not always easily fully appreciated and understood on a deep level and subsequently practiced.

This past weekend I sat around a dinner table with two educated 60 year olds that still had a dumb teenager-like understanding about money and finances and while they're both longing to retire within the next few years, have no realistic chance of ever doing so. When the lady said that she started going to a vegetable market about 25 miles away to 'save on vegetables' .... but also took the opportunity to coincide that trip by having brunch at a nearby cafe, I lost interest and changed the subject. Trying to explain to her that the whole money saving exercise ended up costing her more, would've been completely lost on them. Deep down they know it, don't have to will to change it, and will argue with you to defend their way of doings things .... all while moaning that they have no money and how it's xxxxx fault.

But anyway. my point was that their daughters, one of which I'm dating

, are quite good with money and very sensible. I think that home influences can help, but it's also going to come down to someone on a personal level.

regulus · 25 Apr 2017 at 00:51

V F said:
I wish they taught nutrition at school. Oh I know schools cannot teach everything. They've proven they cannot even teach the basics.

Because the teacher teaching nutrition/finances/politics/whatever, generally don't have much of a clue themselves.

I like the idea of bringing in outside people once a week from a key industry (such as finance), and spend an hour talking to kids about finance. savings, different account types, mortgages, loans and whatnot.