Arsenal FC - A complete shambles. What needs to change? *Please read OP before posting*

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It always makes me laugh when people talk about Wenger having a lack of funds, it's what you do with whatever money you have that actually counts, not how much you have.

If you buy a guy for 35mil because you think he's a damn great midfielder and he appears to get worse over the season and can't even do what you thought he could then the problem isn't the funds, but your judgement and your ability to coach that player into improving. Wenger doesn't improve players any more and his buying is mostly poor. Ozil and Sanchez were 100% absolutely and completely known quantities, I'm also under the impression both were offered to Arsenal, that isn't magic or a sign of good business. Wenger was under pressure and bought both players. For me Ozil wasn't worth 42mil, he was being pushed out for a player who has since been instrumental in key games where Ozil had failed to do the same at Real and continues to do the same for Arsenal. 42mil is for the guys who show up in the big games, not the guys who show up against european minnows in the group stage.

Give Wenger 500mil and he'll waste most of it. His days of being a good coach, a good tactician and a good motivator are LONG gone and the quicker people realise that the better.

Look at what Poch has done with Danny Rose, Kyle Walker, Davies, Son, Lamela, Ericsson, Dier, Wanyama, every one of them has improved, not just a little either but massively. From players he inherited to players he bought, he's improved the hell out of them. Some of his buys have been fairly crap, though time will tell if he can turn them into better players or not. When was the last time we bought a guy for 10mil and he went from average to brilliant under Wenger? Bellerin doesn't count, getting a guy then having him playing first team games shortly afterwards and being great from his first game isn't about Wenger. If anything since Bellerin finally got in the team(while Wenger ignored him completely) due to injury, he's regressed massively since his first 6 months. Still excellent at times but he's getting worse over time while being involved in the first team.
 
Trusty said:
You really have a thing for Spurs..
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Yeah... I'm obsessed with Spurs, because I'm a Spurs fan... I'm not comparing them because they have managed to quite literally break into the top 4, through 5 teams who have VASTLY higher budgets. They aren't the team that improved the most out of anyone in the country... I bring them up purely because I'm a fan. They have more points than any other team in the past two years, they are the most improved, they've turned around the squad on a tiny budget, they have half the wage bill of Arsenal and yet they'll finish what, 10 points at least ahead of us.... but the sole reason I'm bringing them up is I'm a fan.

They aren't at all proof or anything that you can massively improve a team without spending big, they aren't proof that a good manager should be able to continually improve players at or brought in to the club.
 
short term is fine, lets see what happens when they move stadium and compete in Europe eh. Dont splurge too early now
 
opethdisciple said:
I think it's been rejected already.
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I think that's why it's been leaked to the press now, so that the heat builds on Kroenke and when Usmamov comes back with an improved bid the pressure will be intense on Stan to accept.

Failing that, Usmanov should just get some of his Russian mafia heavies round and make him an offer, godfather stylee.
 
Lol it's going to be an epic board meeting at the end of the season... Gazidis vs Wenger, Usminov vs Kroenke. Ozil, Sanchez, Chamberlain, Ramsey, Gibbs and Mertesacker all with one year left on their contracts. Directors of football being talked about. A lot of our old players (who really should know better!!!) not helping by talking **** in the press.

My wishlist/plan: Usminov to buy out Kroenke. Gazidis sacked.
Overmars director of football, Bergkamp joint assistant with Bould, Arsene to walk away when Dennis is ready to take over (one or two years) I think between them they would sort us out.

I don't want some flavour of the month Manager with no connections to our philosophies, I want a well thought out plan put in place.
Like how Zidane or Guardiola were groomed to take over Real and Barca. Only God can save us!!!!!

 
You do realise Zidane was only manager of the Real youth team, which is basically nothing at all like managing a full team and that he was rushed into the job once Benitez was fired. He took over the job in far, far from perfect circumstances, not at all to plan and has done a simply phenomenal job.

Here is a hint, you can't plan who will be a good manager, in the job someone you bring in will do a good or bad job regardless of your hopes and plans. How they'll react under pressure, how well they can get players to adapt to their tactics or accept their commands.


As for DoF's, they do practically nothing at most clubs and once again, there are many many more failures as director of football throughout the footballing world than there have been major successes. Spurs brought in Baldini, who picked a lot of the wrong players and eventually left. You can't just go hey, Overmars as a DoF will work... who says, likewise you can't go hey, Bergkamp is our man, lets groom him, because when he gets into the managers seat he'll either be good or bad. Again also attempting to train someone with on the job training by working under Wenger is most likely to get you Wenger Mk2 which currently we do not want. He's failing, he can't motivate his players, he can't get them playing in the big games, he can't implement a tactical system with any real complexity, he can't organise a defence and these days he can't judge a player well and sticks with players who he shouldn't. These AREN'T traits we want in our next manager, they are the reason for wanting to get Wenger out and having someone come in and be trained to manage like this is setting us up for absolutely no change under the next guy.

Usminov or Kroenke in charge, Gazidis above, it makes exactly no difference when Wenger controls who we buy, Wenger controls where we spend(he has a huge wage bill in lieu of a huge transfer spend), Wenger controls the motivation and training of players(players who get worse after joining Arsenal and who fail miserably when it matters every single season). Wenger likes to pretend our problems are off pitch and financial because it gives him an excuse.

But compare how players improved under Poch, either at Southampton or Spurs, compare how Chelsea have improved with Conte's man management, with his motivation and with his tactics, compare how Real Madrid have improved almost every player under Zidane in a short space of time. This isn't to do with money, you can improve the players you have without spending a penny, you can improve the system at a club without spending a penny, you can improve motivation and how hard players work without spending a penny. The problems Arsenal have, have absolutely nothing to do with financial matters and absolutely nothing to do with senior management of the club above Wenger. Our problems are with on pitch problems, not off pitch ones.


Wenger has to go, you can hope and pray that a certain player will turn into a great manager, but that is what it is, hope. You can find an already proven manager... and also hope(to a much lesser extent) that they will suit Arsenal and improve the team, it won't always work and you just have to live with that. How much Poch improved Southampton should have had Arsenal going for him. Arsenal, unlike other teams, have been in a position to identify a managerial candidate and push Wenger out while bringing in their target whenever they want. Chelsea didn't know they were going to fire Mourinho and so wouldn't have gone for Poch at the time, but Arsenal knew Wenger was nearing the end of his time and could have pursued him, or Klopp, even Guardiola or Conte, we could have approached them all a couple of years ago before they moved and told Wenger to move on. We're missing out on great manager after great manager because Wenger won't relinquish his position.

Arsenal's best chance for first time success in the managerial hire and fire game, is to identify someone like Poch or Klopp, someone doing well at a smaller club who is vastly improving their team, who is making the right decisions for the team and has an attacking style of play, then go and get that manager and screw Wenger and waiting for him to decide to retire.
 
Trusty said:
short term is fine, lets see what happens when they move stadium and compete in Europe eh. Dont splurge too early now
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Which has what to do with what. Circumstances change, jobs get harder, even with the stadium move Spurs will have a large budget disparity to us. Last year we spent 195mil, they spent 100mil... and City spent 198mil on wages. In general if they want to become a 200mil a year team they'll need consistent CL appearances and a 50mil boost from stadium income. The latter is doable but likely won't happen. They could have been charging the same ticket prices as we do but at their current stadium. They'll likely gain between 35-45mil revenue from the next stadium which will certainly help bridge the gap somewhat. but they'll be in a 'growth' phase, I'd expect some issues adjusting to compete in multiple competitions. But ultimately if you're buying players then improving 90% of them on what is a solid base of a team you can't go too far wrong.

But again, what does that have to do with it. Wenger is doing worse today than he was in 2004, much, much, much worse despite a much much bigger budget compared to back then. How on earth can we have a nearly identical wage bill to City.... when we have Giroud and they have Aguero, when we have Walcott and they have De Bruyne, etc, etc.

What matters is the basics, is your manager improving the players in the team through training... yes, manager is doing a good job, no, manager is doing a poor job. Are your tactics working, yes, good job, no poor job. Are your players well motivated, are your players able to cope with the pressure of big games, etc, etc, you get the picture. As above, the basics of management, improving players, tactics working, motivation and mental strength, if these things are all MASSIVE problems, it has nothing to do with finances, it has nothing to do with how many games you play or in which competition. These are basic things that make a manager good or bad. From 97-2005, just about every player improved while at Arsenal, we had the mental strength to compete in all competitions, we won league titles, our tactics were solid and all players seemed motivated. Both with the first team doing exceptionally in the league and don't forget, our youth team(by and large) able to take on the league cup to the late stages and actually play some genuinely great games with great performances. The whole club was different back then.

Then something else to think about, the only real success Arsenal have had under Wenger, was with a 4-4-2 that was mostly based around an all out attack but was insane on the counter attack. The current slower possession based Arsenal who score far less on the counter is a completely different style. This style/tactic, which we've been using since 2006 at the latest... has never had us win the league, has never seen us do well in europe, Wenger has had next to no success with it. We played very different and hugely more effective football while Wenger was genuinely successful. Based on other things, mental success, defensive solidity, ability to see out tight game by going defensive, ability to do great in the big games and ability to win league.... I think other people at the club were crucial.

He inherited a solid defence and monumental leadership, we had other coaches, other scouts, and different players at the time. I think probably a large portion of what made us great was the particular combination that was had at the club, mentality/strength coming from Adams, Keown, Winterburn, Dixon, guys who trained with them daily would have Adams on the pitch telling them what they were doing right, what was wrong, where to stand, when to cover, this makes a huge difference.

There is both something clearly missing that was with us from 97-04/05 and isn't there now but most importantly it's something Wenger has had over a decade to find and fix and has failed to completely.

The basic starting point you want from a manager is, improve the players you have, improve the players you bring in. Not every season will be great, not every buy will be great and not every player can be improved.... but you need to be showing improvement overall. Luck will be with you one year and not another, if every year is bad, no one is improving and overall nothing is improving at the club... management needs to change.
 
drunkenmaster said:
You do realise Zidane was only manager of the Real youth team, which is basically nothing at all like managing a full team and that he was rushed into the job once Benitez was fired. He took over the job in far, far from perfect circumstances, not at all to plan and has done a simply phenomenal job.
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Your post has too many points for me to address them all...

You think Real just plucked any old youth team coach and hoped he would be a success? You think Zidane was just training the kids with a view to it going no further? No, they trained one of their most gifted players up to take over. Dont forget that Del Bosque had done nothing but coach youth teams when he took over.

Here is a hint, you can't plan who will be a good manager, in the job someone you bring in will do a good or bad job regardless of your hopes and plans. How they'll react under pressure, how well they can get players to adapt to their tactics or accept their commands.
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You cannot guarantee someone will be great, but you can certainly have people in the coaching setup learning the ropes ready to have a go.


As for DoF's, they do practically nothing at most clubs and once again, there are many many more failures as director of football throughout the footballing world than there have been major successes. Spurs brought in Baldini, who picked a lot of the wrong players and eventually left. You can't just go hey, Overmars as a DoF will work... who says, likewise you can't go hey, Bergkamp is our man, lets groom him, because when he gets into the managers seat he'll either be good or bad. Again also attempting to train someone with on the job training by working under Wenger is most likely to get you Wenger Mk2 which currently we do not want. He's failing, he can't motivate his players, he can't get them playing in the big games, he can't implement a tactical system with any real complexity, he can't organise a defence and these days he can't judge a player well and sticks with players who he shouldn't. These AREN'T traits we want in our next manager, they are the reason for wanting to get Wenger out and having someone come in and be trained to manage like this is setting us up for absolutely no change under the next guy.
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I agree, at a lot of clubs the dof is a failure. They seem to confuse things most of the time. But in our case we need someone to do some of the work, because otherwise we're relying on carpet salesmen to make football decisions. Overmars has done pretty well at Ajax imo.. Why not him if we're going down that route? I have no problem with a Wenger mk2!!! Saying he cant motivate, organise, judge a player is just ridiculous. We lose a few games, have a dip and then go on a run. Nothing that a bit of investment wouldn't cure.

Usminov or Kroenke in charge, Gazidis above, it makes exactly no difference when Wenger controls who we buy, Wenger controls where we spend(he has a huge wage bill in lieu of a huge transfer spend), Wenger controls the motivation and training of players(players who get worse after joining Arsenal and who fail miserably when it matters every single season). Wenger likes to pretend our problems are off pitch and financial because it gives him an excuse.
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I think when David Dein was at the club he had quite a bit of say and challenged Wenger regularly. The problem is that there is nobody above Arsene at the club who he trusts to do anything.

Come on now fail miserably every year? We came second last year and have won FA Cups!!

I really fail to understand why people want Wenger out no matter what. Kroenke and Gazidis have given him no backing what so ever. We are basically paying Sanchez the same as what Sol Campbell was paid 16 years ago. You want the best players in the league at your club like we used to? Pay the wages!!!
 
We aren't paying Sanchez the same as Sol Campbell, our wage bill at the time Sol came in was around the 80mil mark, we spent 195mil on wages last year, City spent 198mil. Sol Campell got WAY more cash because he was a free transfer. It was, we buy you for 20mil now and you get 50k a week if you're lucky, or screw over Spurs, wait till next season to join and we give you half the cash we saved on the transfer as higher wages. Sol was on 100k a week, Henry was on about 60k a week at the time. Sanchez is on somewhere around 160k a week iirc and that is on top of a transfer fee. It's in effect three times higher.

WE're giving Walcott about 120k a week, where as someone who wasn't even a starting striker would be on 25-30k a week.

No backing, again financially Wenger has gone from winning titles while spending 70mil a year to not being able to win spending almost 200mil a year on top of investment in transfers.

Carpet salesman doesn't matter, footballing background doesn't matter. The job of Gazidis is to run the club, do the paper work. When Wenger says I want to buy X, he goes into a room with someone else in the same role from the other team and does the paper work. The issue is who we're buying and how the team improves.

As for dip in form and go on a run... yes, you described every team except champions, who don't have the dip and no where near as severe.

Second... we came second last year after Spurs imploded. A month from the end of the season Arsenal weren't in the title fight and Spurs were, they imploded, but they dropped out of the title fight, we didn't get back into it because we came second. Last year, in a year that every other top team had either fired their manager, were mid rebuilding or were just plain awful, or in most cases a combination.... Arsenal with a stable manager, more new players, more money spent and another year of increased wages(and likely ticket prices, I haven't been able to go for years as I've moved away) and Arsenal came 10 points behind a team spending 50-60mil a year on wages(it ended up 80mil due to winning league bonuses.. their 'true' wage was no where near that high). Last year we were the least embarrassing of the big clubs, but that doesn't mean we should be proud of second. A bunch of those teams improved last year, Wenger is boasting about being 1 point better off, where are Leicester and where are Arsenal? Despite doing better than last year, 5 clubs decided not to implode this year and Arsenal have dropped multiple places as a result. This year shows where Arsenal would have finished last year as well if City/Chelsea/Liverpool weren't having issues.

FA Cups, again, we beat Hull and Villa, what does that tell you? The last 3-4 years has been a period in which Utd have been a disaster, City are struggling with Toure being too big to drop and too crap to do well along with a massive change in style. Liverpool were waiting for a genuinely top manager to turn them into something and Chelsea had a revolving door. During all that those teams didn't give a damn about the FA Cup. Utd have started caring about the lesser cups as they struggle to do anything in the main cups in the past two years. WE won two cups against literally relegation quality sides in years in which no one else gave a damn about them... again, nothing to be proud of.

Kroenke and Gazidis have overseen a period in which our wage bill has almost trebled, our transfer spending has increased and our revenue's have skyrocketed. Wenger has done extremely little with that money.

Again look what Spurs have done on a 100mil wage bill and a significantly lower net spend and say Wenger hasn't been backed.
 
I agree that our North London neighbours have been better than us for the last two years, but they still haven't won anything. We had shown progress the previous few, and won a couple of Fa cups (which any team apart from Chelsea and Man United would consider a great season) I think it's pretty special that Wenger has won it so many times. If we beat Chelsea next week that will put him on 7, that will be a tough record to beat.
 
rebel rebel said:
I agree that our North London neighbours have been better than us for the last two years, but they still haven't won anything. We had shown progress the previous few, and won a couple of Fa cups (which any team apart from Chelsea and Man United would consider a great season) I think it's pretty special that Wenger has won it so many times. If we beat Chelsea next week that will put him on 7, that will be a tough record to beat.
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THe years we won I'll again point out that we beat Hull (after going down 2-0 and being awful) then Villa who were just so so embarrassing they couldn't even muster 10% of the fight they needed. These are seasons in which City had failed to make an impression in europe so were focused on that, Utd had dropped from 1st to 7th in the championship and were desperate to focus on the league and get into europe, Liverpool were what, at the time going for the title the first year and ended up second. Everyone had other priorities and we beat a bunch of chumps in the final.

CHelsea and Utd are simply big clubs with budgets twice that of Spurs and everyone below them, Arsenal fit into that group regardless of what we've actually won, carling cup and FA cup are excuses for teams that aren't genuinely competitive in europe or the league when it comes to teams with double the budget of those teams chasing.

We weren't improving at all in those years. The same issue plagued us, failure in big games, even against Hull in a cup final we once again did the usual Arsenal thing, under pressure of winning we ended up 2-0 behind and playing like a bunch of idiots, at that point they played like it was game over, when that happened pressure was off and they started playing football again.

Throughout the season in europe and in the league we failed against big teams, we got embarrassed in europe again, we had the same mentality issues, we had the same lack of buying the players for central mid, we failed to buy leaders.

Nothing has changed in donkeys years in that regard. There will be seasons for any team that are good and bad, a good year should see a genuine fight for the title, not being 10-20 points behind with a couple of months to go, not getting a consolation second to a low overall points total when 4 other teams screwed up massively that year, but actually not throwing away stupid games, being within 3-4 points with a few games to go, not going out by a large margin in europe at the first big hurdle.


What I fail to see, since at least 07/08, is any learning from Wenger, all the major mistakes he makes, overplaying injury prone players, getting people back from injury and playing them almost every single game right till they get injured again, no proper rotation, having his favourites who play for long spells despite playing poorly. Weak mentality, poor tactics, inability to adapt for bigger games, inability to try new things, inability to fix the longest term problems in the squad.
 
drunkenmaster said:
THe years we won I'll again point out that we beat Hull (after going down 2-0 and being awful) then Villa who were just so so embarrassing they couldn't even muster 10% of the fight they needed. These are seasons in which City had failed to make an impression in europe so were focused on that, Utd had dropped from 1st to 7th in the championship and were desperate to focus on the league and get into europe, Liverpool were what, at the time going for the title the first year and ended up second. Everyone had other priorities and we beat a bunch of chumps in the final.

CHelsea and Utd are simply big clubs with budgets twice that of Spurs and everyone below them, Arsenal fit into that group regardless of what we've actually won, carling cup and FA cup are excuses for teams that aren't genuinely competitive in europe or the league when it comes to teams with double the budget of those teams chasing.

We weren't improving at all in those years. The same issue plagued us, failure in big games, even against Hull in a cup final we once again did the usual Arsenal thing, under pressure of winning we ended up 2-0 behind and playing like a bunch of idiots, at that point they played like it was game over, when that happened pressure was off and they started playing football again.

Throughout the season in europe and in the league we failed against big teams, we got embarrassed in europe again, we had the same mentality issues, we had the same lack of buying the players for central mid, we failed to buy leaders.

Nothing has changed in donkeys years in that regard. There will be seasons for any team that are good and bad, a good year should see a genuine fight for the title, not being 10-20 points behind with a couple of months to go, not getting a consolation second to a low overall points total when 4 other teams screwed up massively that year, but actually not throwing away stupid games, being within 3-4 points with a few games to go, not going out by a large margin in europe at the first big hurdle.


What I fail to see, since at least 07/08, is any learning from Wenger, all the major mistakes he makes, overplaying injury prone players, getting people back from injury and playing them almost every single game right till they get injured again, no proper rotation, having his favourites who play for long spells despite playing poorly. Weak mentality, poor tactics, inability to adapt for bigger games, inability to try new things, inability to fix the longest term problems in the squad.
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Winning fa cups regardless of the opponent is still an achievement. Yes we would like to win the league but we're fighting against teams who spend 1/4 of a billion without even thinking. And spurs who have probably the best young manager in the game and Kane and deli, who are all performing very well. We just have Sanchez to rely on.
With the way the value of clubs has risen in recent years Kroenke could have pumped in £400mill on players and still be sitting on a profit when/if he sells. We must have lost out on so many players because we don't bid enough or pay enough wages, that's Kroenke fault. We are a football club, he runs it as a business. It's sad to think we have become just part of a collection of things owned by that man. I want owners that want to win and see the best players at their club as much as the fans do. We used to have that but we don't anymore.

There has been a change of tactics lately and certain players have improved in the new system. We do suffer terribly from injuries though, and don't have a like for like replacement for Santi Cazorla who we always miss so much.

Do you think a new manager would get the funds he needs for improvement?
 
There are players other than Kane and Alli, but why did Spurs have them in the first place and not Arsenal. We have Sanchez as our only top player because Wenger allowed that to happen, by buying poorly, wasting money on the wrong players and improving no one we buy any more. Poch has turned around a dozen players from average or even below average into currently great players.

Arsenal spend the same on wages as City, seriously, let that sink in.

Kroenke couldn't just sink 400mil into the club, the clubs stock value may have increased but that has zero bearing on Arsenal's profit/loss internal to the club, 400mil added would have meant breaking FFP each and every year and being fined heavily or banned from the champs league.

But again, we don't need that 400mil, the massive amount of money we are spending is significantly more than Spurs are spending yet they are improving into a competitive team while we are going backwards.

Winning the FA Cup while failing in other competitions is a monumental achievement if you have a 60mil wage bill as a prem league team, it's a monumental achievement if you have a 10mil wage budget and are in the championship, it's a okay achievement if you have a 100mil wage bill. If's a great achievement if you are competitive in the league and europe till later stages of both competitions and also win the FA Cup. If you spent over 180mil a year on wages, fluff the league, get embarrassed in europe and no other big teams care about the FA Cup that year.... it's not a great achievement, it's not even close.

Arsenal will as of this season be a 200mil wage bill club, the targets for a club spending twice likely around 2.5x the league average is significantly higher than the targets for a wage bill at average let alone below average.

Personally I didn't see anyone improve in the new system, it was a joke against Spurs and it seemed at the time like a final desperate roll of the dice. This wasn't a system Wenger was familiar with, it wasn't one he's trained for over the past year and was ready to implement, it was one he brought out when he felt everyone was against him and his team had to try something different. We beat... Boro, then City who the following week were genuinely outplayed by... Boro. City were poor against us, poor against boro, they went through a period of terrible form. WE then got absolutely played off the park by Spurs using that great new system. That system was simply untested against one terrible team and one team playing badly and looked worse than our usual formation/tactics against a team in form.

We've suffered from injuries for 10-12 years, this is again something going on at the club, no other team has an injury crisis every single year, in fact this is probably the least injury effected season in the past 12 years. When Santi was fit, nothing was different, we still had the same problems, the same weaknesses and the same inability to genuinely compete in the league or europe.

Arsenal have 200mil cash sitting in the bank, it's been there for ages, Kroenke hasn't taken it out of the club, the majority is available to spend, the financial books have been open every year and plain to see, though ignored by most fans. Wenger is the reason we don't spend that money, but he spends a fair amount of money anyway. The issue isn't how much he spends but now how badly he spends it, how poorly so many of the buys he makes do and how basically non improve as players once joining Arsenal.

Great teams, even the biggest, buy plenty of players for great prices and improve them over time to make a strong overall squad. Even Real who may well win the CL back to back, bought Ronaldo for 80mil, but got Modric for a fair fee, got Marcelo for 6mil, got Ramos and Pepe pretty cheap. Plenty of great value buys amongst the huge fees they've paid and pretty much all of them improved, including Ronaldo. Even in that case they paid 80mil for a guy with one 40+ goal season and turned him into a 7 consecutive seasons scoring 40+ goals player.

We don't have to win the league any year let alone every year, it's entirely reasonable to expect Arsenal to not **** it up by March every single season, it's entirely reasonable to expect Arsenal to not concede 3-5 goals in one leg of every first stage knock out round in europe every single year.

You get beaten by Bayern 5-1, sure, that will happen even to the best teams, but every year? Where are the 1-1 games that go to penalties or at least so tight you can genuinely congratulate the effort.

There is no team spending over 120mil a year in wages in any league in europe who doesn't regularly get to later stages of the CL or either win leagues or at least be in the running in the final couple of weeks... except Arsenal. Dortmund and Atletico were spending sub 100mil a year in wages, I think actually below 80mil, when they reached CL finals at the same time Arsenal were spending around 155-165mil on wages
 
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