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ASUS Eee Pad Transformer 2
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Watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu3h70wH9FA and say its all about the GPU. And the performance of TEGRA 3 will be fine - coupled with the battery in the transformer it will be a killer combo.
I really dont see how its a killer combo. What has it go going for it?
Why will it be fine? Its slower then phones and looks to be well under half the speed of tablets it's fighting against. Everything I would want to do on this tablet I can do around the same speed on my phone or faster and better on other tablets. I bet if you added in other tablets or the Iphone 4S or other new phones to that benchmark the Transformer 2 would be below them all.
But my most important point is the CPU was fine on the old one, I don't recall everyone saying they need more CPU power. The problem area was the GPU with lots of complaints about videos not working with shuttering, graphics being slow, UI being sluggish. Will those be solved with the weak GPU in the new tablet? We are talking about a GPU thats under half it not 1/4 the speed of what everyone else has.
I see nothing amazing about that video. It's got below average graphics a phone could run, it's only just got dynamic lights and all those other features that everyone else has had for over a years now. The video also demonstrators just how weak Tegra cores are if it takes 4 cores just to render what everyone else does on one or two. A few basic items and basic light become unplayable on 2 cores? How weak are those cores?
When phones are pulling off http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL7p2P6Ft3Y and tablets will be way beyond that in 2012 I don't see how or why the Transformer is anything but way behind in performance.
The other big problem is software. Just how many apps are we going to see with Tegra market share dropping well below 1% and every single big name apart from one dropping Tegra due to low performance? Tegra is no longer part of the reference platform either. I can see a lot of the apps and support for the Transfomer 1 vanishing this time around. A lot of apps programmed for the reference platform will not be transfer over to the Transfomer. A lot of apps from other new Andorid tablets and phones will not get transferred over either due to the code base no longer being the same.
The only reason the Transfomer 1 got many apps was because it has the same hardware as other phones, tablets and the reference platform. That has all gone this upcoming generation.
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Soldato
What phones is it slower than?
GPU wise it looks slower or around the same speed as the top 4 phones on both benchmarks. It looks to be around half the speed of the Iphone 4s and slower then other upcoming phones from a GPU point of view. I don't see how it's going to compete against next gen tablets when it can hardly beat current phones yet alone next gen phones.
I consider the GPU one of the main parts as it's what makes the device feel smooth now that flash, UI, web browser and videos are all done on the GPU instead of the CPU. I am also concerned the transfomers 2's GPU will have the same problems as the transformer 1.
The transfomers 2's 2D and 3D graphics are clearly in the category of last generation performance.
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unbeatable battery life than anything out there for the foreseeable
high profile h.264 decoding
should be fast at web browsing/decode hd flash no problem
+ the rest of the tablet benefits
I see this more as a laptop replacement than a games machine - I hardly ever play games on my SGS2 - that will be the same in the transformer - I dedicate my gaming time to my XBOX and ps3. The amount of people out the are transfixed on gpu performance are slim - and you haven't even seen proper benchmarks but you go drawing definite conclusions.
what? - how can everyone else do it on 2 cores when they use the exact same cortex A9 cores? talk sense and back up your comments.
I don't care about tegra apps - like I said I hardly play games on a mobile device. And I'll bet you all the games that come out in 2012 will play just as well on this than any other android device.
Its not using the same GPU as it was using in tegra 2 is it? I thought its new GPU was upto 3 times more powerful.
Any why are you banging on about the device feeling smooth - the ip4 used a sgx535 and thats smooth as butter.
I would like to see some fair benchmarks proving it has that much better battery life. It looks like most upcoming devices and old devices beat the Transformer without the keyboard battery and are only a few hours behind the Transformer with the keyboard battery assuming the marketing info is correct about 14 hours.
As for foreseeable future in less than a year we have OMAP 5 SoC on 28nm with two low power cores which looks to have better battery life. We also have phones that can run the same media as the Transformer with better battery life.
As for h.264 decoding wow welcome to last year. Yet another reason I never liked Tegra is was always so far behind. Fast web browsing/decode hd flash? Due to the very weak GPU it's looking to be the slowest tablet at that, slower then phones even. Look at the 2d and 3d part of the benchmarks in posts above. The Transformer was slower than the phones so how can it even stand up to next gen tablets?
Most don't seem to understand how important the GPU is. A lot of major areas have moved off the CPU to the GPU this generation. Icecream Sandwich has moved the UI, the web browser, flash to hardware acceleration on the GPU instead of the CPU.
I am drawing conclusions based on proper benchmarks Nvidia gave us and hardware specs and the benchmarks in above posts. GPU benchmarks from Nvidia have the Tegra 3 chip as double the speed of Tegra 2 at graphics best case and mostly only 50% better. That puts Tegra 3 around 3 to 7 times slower than the Iphone 4s depending on benchmark and slower then pretty much all tablets due out. Tegra 3 looks to be slower than all the Android phones due out in the next 6 months as well as tablets at least from a GPU point of view.
I am not denying that are some good points to the Transformer 2 but anyone buying one should be aware its shaping up to be the slowest of next gen devices and slower then phones in many areas. Plus will most likely have a lack of software/app support due to the reasons I posted before. Programs coded for Android reference devices will mostly no longer work on the Transformer 2. There will also most likely be a lack of programs ported over due to Tegra no longer being used on other devices.
4 cores are not automatically better or faster than 2 cores. 2 cores at a faster Mhz rating can bet 4 cores. 2 cores with a decent GPU will often beat 4 cores with a rubbish GPU. That video has really basic graphics with no reason why 2 cores should struggle. We have seen better graphics on phones with 2 CPU cores and tablets with 2 CPU cores.
I would be very surprised by that considering how weak the GPU is. That and most of the games won't even work. Will games developers really want to code just for 1 device with well under 1% market share? It's not like last generation where programs and games coded for other devices or Android reference will work on Transformer.
Yes it is the same GPU with 50% more cores and no its not 3 times more powerful. Should be around 50% faster which is not enough considering how much slower it is then other phones and tablets.
I did say 4s which is a PowerVR SGX 543MP2. Most next gen devices seem to be OMAP4 which is also far faster over Tegra 3. A big focus on the next version of Android (IC version) is Hardware acceleration on the GPU which is why I am so focues on the GPU.
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http://blogs.nvidia.com/2011/09/quad-core-kal-el’s-stealth-fifth-core-lets-it-save-on-energy/
Pottsey you nutter - stop banging on about the GPU and how everything revolves around it. Wait till its reviewed by Anandtech and the like before you go jumping to highly exaggerated conclusions.
You seem to be debating for the sake of debating.
Remember tegra 3 is coming out way before any other next gen chip - I'd rather have this now in the only transformer concept than wait 3-4 months and have a supposedly better chip in a device I don't want.
looks at the 2d/3d performance below in the graph - its looks about the same as the SGS2 and nexus.
Pottsey you nutter - stop banging on about the GPU and how everything revolves around it. Wait till its reviewed by Anandtech and the like before you go jumping to highly exaggerated conclusions.
You seem to be debating for the sake of debating.
Remember tegra 3 is coming out way before any other next gen chip - I'd rather have this now in the only transformer concept than wait 3-4 months and have a supposedly better chip in a device I don't want.
looks at the 2d/3d performance below in the graph - its looks about the same as the SGS2 and nexus.
Nice
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That graph is a little odd,
The LG Optimus 2X and Moto Xoom are both Tegra 2 devices, and yet vastly different 2D/3D scores. Hell apparantly the Xoom has the higher clocked GPU there.
The Transformer Prime has around double the 'RAM' score to the other top-end devices, yet Kal El still only has a single-channel memory interface (up to 800MHhz compared to Tegra 2's 600MHz though) whilst both the SGS2 and Galaxy Nexus I believe have dual-channel 800MHz.
Then there's the SGS2 graphics vs either of the Tegra 2 platforms, we know from other benchmarks that the SGS2 delivers 2x or more than the Tegra 2, and yet here they're even/possibly even losing slightly?
Way more questions than it answers, as you say yourself lets just wait until some reputable like Anandtech gets their hands on one
The LG Optimus 2X and Moto Xoom are both Tegra 2 devices, and yet vastly different 2D/3D scores. Hell apparantly the Xoom has the higher clocked GPU there.
The Transformer Prime has around double the 'RAM' score to the other top-end devices, yet Kal El still only has a single-channel memory interface (up to 800MHhz compared to Tegra 2's 600MHz though) whilst both the SGS2 and Galaxy Nexus I believe have dual-channel 800MHz.
Then there's the SGS2 graphics vs either of the Tegra 2 platforms, we know from other benchmarks that the SGS2 delivers 2x or more than the Tegra 2, and yet here they're even/possibly even losing slightly?
Way more questions than it answers, as you say yourself lets just wait until some reputable like Anandtech gets their hands on one
No need to call names just because I pointed out that a large amount that revolved around the CPU last generation now revolves around the GPU this generation. Its true and simple fact anyone can look up. One of the main points of the new android was to move away from the CPU to the GPU.
I am not debating for the sake of debating; I am just trying talk about the large weak areas in the Transformer 2. How can people make informed decisions on buying one if no one is allowed to talk about the weak areas? The facts are both in benchmarks and specs the Transformer 2 has subpar performance along with the software support problem it's likely to face.
How are my conclusions exaggerated? Both my software and GPU points are valid.
The benchmarks and specs are not x3 better. Ok in Nvidia own tech demo was x3 but the real apps are more around 1.5x to x2 at best. Lost Planet 2 went from 15fps on Tegra 2 to 30fps on Kal-Ei which is only x2. Da Vinci went from 13fps to 30fps again around x2. The only benchmarks I have seen at x3 is Glowball which is written by Nivida and doesn't count as it's an unfair test. Just how ever I look at it the GPU is weak for a next gen tablet and that is going to have a direct impact on web browsing, flash, UI and everything else that's now done on the GPU instead of the CPU.
Other tablets are due this month. Its going to be a close call if the Transformer 2 is first or not. What do you mean 3 to 4 months? Ipad 3 should be 3 to 4months but the Ipad2 is already faster than the Transformer 2.
Pottsey - you seemed to confused to think you need a mega super duper powerful gpu to get super smooth harware accelertaed UI. Look at the Ipad 1 running SGX535 - old GPU yet ui is perfectly smooth. You seem to thing cpu is irrelevant and its all about the GPU - I'm not 100% clued up on this but I'm sure cpu and memory interface are just as important as the GPU.
Show me hard facts that the Tegra 3 SoC will be weak and not be a good SoC for a 2012 Tablet. I want proper graphs like the ones from anandtech. And show me videos of stuttering UI when using honeycomb/ICS - show me videos of slow web browsing and it not coping with HD flash content. How are you going to show me when a production ready Tranformer 2 is not out yet?
There's no point comparing the Ipad 2 to Android Tabs they run differnt OS's. Show me anotther Android tab thats going to be a better all round tab than the transformer 2 as a laptop replacement.
Show me hard facts that the Tegra 3 SoC will be weak and not be a good SoC for a 2012 Tablet. I want proper graphs like the ones from anandtech. And show me videos of stuttering UI when using honeycomb/ICS - show me videos of slow web browsing and it not coping with HD flash content. How are you going to show me when a production ready Tranformer 2 is not out yet?
There's no point comparing the Ipad 2 to Android Tabs they run differnt OS's. Show me anotther Android tab thats going to be a better all round tab than the transformer 2 as a laptop replacement.
Until the device is out best I can do is show the Tegra 2 chip running massively slower than other chips. This shows that even if Tegra 2 is x3 faster is would still be behind by a lot. Then there are the already out Tegra 3 benchmarks all of which are not that good. To do everything you want will require us to wait.
With a bit of luck we should have the fire and Xoom 2 tablets within a few weeks. Tell well tell if I am right or wrong about the what I believe will be a poor showing of apps for the transfomer2.
With a bit of luck we should have the fire and Xoom 2 tablets within a few weeks. Tell well tell if I am right or wrong about the what I believe will be a poor showing of apps for the transfomer2.
Pottsey - please explain why a android phone running an old SGX540 is benchmarking better than the iphone4s with its SGX543MP2 in the browser test?
And what do we see here - an tegra 2 tablet coming above the ip4s?
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4981/...formance-preview-improved-browser-performance
You told me its all about the GPU anything weaker than in the ip4s is a disaster.The truth is its not all about the GPU - Its a combination of cpu/ram/gpu/software.
some more factual examples here: tegra 2 (let alone tegra 3) beating ipad2 at browsing tests
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4881/handson-with-the-galaxy-tab-89/2
And what do we see here - an tegra 2 tablet coming above the ip4s?
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4981/...formance-preview-improved-browser-performance
You told me its all about the GPU anything weaker than in the ip4s is a disaster.The truth is its not all about the GPU - Its a combination of cpu/ram/gpu/software.
some more factual examples here: tegra 2 (let alone tegra 3) beating ipad2 at browsing tests
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4881/handson-with-the-galaxy-tab-89/2
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Those tests are not a real browser test and do not use the GPU. It's a javasciprt browser test which is fully CPU based with the GPU having zero impact. As it says on the page"Obviously this is only measuring javascript performance and not the full web browsing experience". The test is also a bit inconsistent the same site a few weeks ago posted http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4951/41619.png
But still the phones are a match for those tablets which is not really good showing for a tablet.
I never said it's all about the GPU. I said a lot is being moved from the CPU to the GPU. That's a big focus for the next version of Android but there are still a few areas that the CPU is used. I never said it would be a disaster only that the focus next gen is on the GPU not CPU. Last gen it was java, flash, UI, browser all done on the CPU. Now all those apart from java moved to the GPU along with everything else the GPU does like play video. When it comes to GPU based stuff Tegra 2 and 3 are way behind everyone else.
But still the phones are a match for those tablets which is not really good showing for a tablet.
I never said it's all about the GPU. I said a lot is being moved from the CPU to the GPU. That's a big focus for the next version of Android but there are still a few areas that the CPU is used. I never said it would be a disaster only that the focus next gen is on the GPU not CPU. Last gen it was java, flash, UI, browser all done on the CPU. Now all those apart from java moved to the GPU along with everything else the GPU does like play video. When it comes to GPU based stuff Tegra 2 and 3 are way behind everyone else.
Pottesy, have you actaully used a transformer 1 running android 3.2 - I can tell you that the browser and UI is smooth and fast. It was a lot worse on Android 3.0 as that was back when the os just released and a bit buggy and not as well optimised as it is now.
And FYI Android 3.0 is all GPU accelerated - Tegra 2 did just fine.
And FYI Android 3.0 is all GPU accelerated - Tegra 2 did just fine.
I really am very much a phone/tablet noob when it comes to anything to do with the technology in them. I must admit before reading this thread i "assumed" the samsung galaxy S2 that i own had a tegra 2 cpu!
I couldn't actually understand why when i bought a Samsung Galaxy tab 10.1 that it felt horrendeously slow, even just in the ui and browsing i just found it so frustrating to the point i sold it yet the Galaxy S2 always feels so fluent. At least now i know why!
Reading all of this with interest Its really hard to judge for me if this transformer 2 will fix the sluggishness that i hated so much with the galaxy tab 10.1 but i really really hope so.
EDIT - Interesting to read what Kona just said as i was indeed on 3.0 and i found it absolutely horrible. I am as far as you can possibly get from an apple fanboy but even i had to hold my hand up and say the ipad 1 felt immensely faster and more responsive all round.
I couldn't actually understand why when i bought a Samsung Galaxy tab 10.1 that it felt horrendeously slow, even just in the ui and browsing i just found it so frustrating to the point i sold it yet the Galaxy S2 always feels so fluent. At least now i know why!
Reading all of this with interest
Its really hard to judge for me if this transformer 2 will fix the sluggishness that i hated so much with the galaxy tab 10.1 but i really really hope so.EDIT - Interesting to read what Kona just said as i was indeed on 3.0 and i found it absolutely horrible. I am as far as you can possibly get from an apple fanboy but even i had to hold my hand up and say the ipad 1 felt immensely faster and more responsive all round.
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If I am honest I have used one but I don't know which version of Andorid is on my brother's transformer.
" And FYI Android 3.0 is all GPU accelerated - Tegra 2 did just fine."
I don't agree on Tegra 2 doing fine, various forums where full of complaints of the GPU being to weak and causing problems playing certain types of videos.
GPU acceleration is incorrect although some Samsung devices had a custom bit of software that did a few bits on the GPU. But android 3.0 as a whole was missing hardware acceleration.
See http://www.mobile2u.com.pk/blog/tech_news/android_icecream_sandwich_features.aspx Hardware acceleration is listed as a new feature. http://www.androidpolice.com/2011/1...am-sandwich-to-feature-hardware-acceleration/ "Hardware acceleration allows for a buttery smooth user experience, better graphic performance, and better responsiveness within apps." " concern that's been on the tip of the Android community's tongue lately is hardware acceleration. It's something we've been waiting for for a while now, and it looks like Ice Cream Sandwich will finally deliver."
" And FYI Android 3.0 is all GPU accelerated - Tegra 2 did just fine."
I don't agree on Tegra 2 doing fine, various forums where full of complaints of the GPU being to weak and causing problems playing certain types of videos.
GPU acceleration is incorrect although some Samsung devices had a custom bit of software that did a few bits on the GPU. But android 3.0 as a whole was missing hardware acceleration.
See http://www.mobile2u.com.pk/blog/tech_news/android_icecream_sandwich_features.aspx Hardware acceleration is listed as a new feature. http://www.androidpolice.com/2011/1...am-sandwich-to-feature-hardware-acceleration/ "Hardware acceleration allows for a buttery smooth user experience, better graphic performance, and better responsiveness within apps." " concern that's been on the tip of the Android community's tongue lately is hardware acceleration. It's something we've been waiting for for a while now, and it looks like Ice Cream Sandwich will finally deliver."
http://developer.android.com/sdk/android-3.0.html
Tegra 2 was carp for video codec support as it didn't support NEON or have HP h.264 decode - which Tegra 3 does.
The SGX540 in the new Galaxy NEXUS shows that its powerful enough to do all gpu related tasks. Its UI is as smooth as it needs to be. Tegra 3 Geforce will be more powerful than that.
Yay Pottsey troll posts 
We've gone through this several times already 
Kona's right. Tegra 2 doesn't completely accelerate the H.264 decode pipeline, so there's some software offloading that use the A9 cores and they don't have neon architecture. Doh!
Performance and battery life suffered, Android and flash did eventually start leveraging the GPU but it's just papering over the cracks, you don't want the GPU decoding video.
(Only the ziilabs stem cell GPGPU is designed to do that and it's yet to be proven for performance/power consumption)
Kal-El, apparently, adds a massive decoder and the full neon SIMD, job done.
Oh Pottsey, these SoCs are all about heterogeneous computing, ideally your main GPU is completely switched off until you load a game. A small, low power architecture GPU is good enough for UI and browser acceleration etc (see OMAP4) Even Tegra 2's GPU is overkill for those tasks.
Regarding 3D gaming performance it looks like Kal-El is roughly about the same as a highly clocked SGX540 or about 50-80% faster than Tegra 2, it's the same architecture with more 1/3 more cores and clocked a bit faster.
(I assume the SGS2/Nexus hit the fps buffer on that benchmark)
I would've liked to see a bigger improvement but nVidia have to sell this chip to OEMs for around 6 months and there won't be any games, in that time frame, that'll require huge horsepower.
The Apple A5 was specifically designed for gaming but skimped a bit on other parts to keep the die size down, i.e. it uses the same encoder from the A4. (don't forget Kal-El is 30% smaller than the A5)
There's a strong chance Apple will keep this performance level for another year too.
We've gone through this several times already Kona's right. Tegra 2 doesn't completely accelerate the H.264 decode pipeline, so there's some software offloading that use the A9 cores and they don't have neon architecture. Doh!
Performance and battery life suffered, Android and flash did eventually start leveraging the GPU but it's just papering over the cracks, you don't want the GPU decoding video.
(Only the ziilabs stem cell GPGPU is designed to do that and it's yet to be proven for performance/power consumption)
Kal-El, apparently, adds a massive decoder and the full neon SIMD, job done.
Oh Pottsey, these SoCs are all about heterogeneous computing, ideally your main GPU is completely switched off until you load a game. A small, low power architecture GPU is good enough for UI and browser acceleration etc (see OMAP4) Even Tegra 2's GPU is overkill for those tasks.
Regarding 3D gaming performance it looks like Kal-El is roughly about the same as a highly clocked SGX540 or about 50-80% faster than Tegra 2, it's the same architecture with more 1/3 more cores and clocked a bit faster.
(I assume the SGS2/Nexus hit the fps buffer on that benchmark)
I would've liked to see a bigger improvement but nVidia have to sell this chip to OEMs for around 6 months and there won't be any games, in that time frame, that'll require huge horsepower.
The Apple A5 was specifically designed for gaming but skimped a bit on other parts to keep the die size down, i.e. it uses the same encoder from the A4. (don't forget Kal-El is 30% smaller than the A5)
There's a strong chance Apple will keep this performance level for another year too.
I am not trolling just disappointed the GPU is so weak and everything else I said it true even if some people love the transformer to much to admit it. I have no problem admitting that people who don't need the GPU will find the transformer 2 better then the first. It should be fine for simple web browsing and watching videos just one of the slower tablets at that.
The transformer 2 was in my short list as I need a tablet now my PDA is dead and I have not seen a new decent PDA design in years. Apple are locked down too much for my liking but transformer 2 is shaping up to be a disappointed in speed and the software/app situation is looking worse than last gen. I guess I have to wait for more info on the Xoom 2 and other tablets.
The transformer 2 was in my short list as I need a tablet now my PDA is dead and I have not seen a new decent PDA design in years. Apple are locked down too much for my liking but transformer 2 is shaping up to be a disappointed in speed and the software/app situation is looking worse than last gen. I guess I have to wait for more info on the Xoom 2 and other tablets.