Atheists unite
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Soldato
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Oh dear he has to work all day, welcome to the real worldanything I don't mind said:
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Not sure where I got the idea he linked it but yes
However, in the case of Stalin and others, there is no atheist agenda they are following (I'm not sure how to explain this, it is difficult to word). In the case of Al-Qaeda or ISIS, they are doing it as ordered by the Koran, taken directly from Islamic ideology itself, e.g. "I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers."
I think you need to read up on the communist manifesto. One of the fundamental basis of communism is the promotion and adherence to an Athiest Agenda. The Qu'ran doesnt order ISIS and Al-Qaeda to do the things it does, that's simply the way they interpret it in order to advance an Islamist agenda. There is significant difference between Islamism and Islam. The Bolsheviks when they came to power made their brand of dogmatic atheism the fundamental basis of their actions, this is supported by the historical record. Not only Stalin, but Lenin before him promoted an Atheist agenda within their political ambition. Lunacharsky created an atheist education program for example, Children were taught Atheism and all Religion and reference to God was banned, State sponsored publications such as "The Godless" spread the idea of Atheism, State Sponsored groups such as the Union of The Godless were created and so on...to say there was no Atheist Agenda in the Soviet State is fundamentally flawed and ignores the actual evidence.
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Agenda was the wrong word. I mean, there is no atheist fundamental they were following (other than a disbelief in a god obviously). I really don't konwo how to word this...
There is nothing that they were following as dictated by atheism. Which is not true in the case of militant Muslims.
Atheism was fundamental to the Leninist and Stalinist ideology in the same way as Theism is fundamental to an Islamist ideology. The point being that under those Communist/Socialist regimes there was an inherent Militant Atheism in the same way as Islamism has an inherent Militant Theism.
You don't know how to word it simply because there is no way to word it without ignoring the historical fact, In Soviet Russia (and other Socialist Regimes) there was an extreme hostility toward Religious Theism and they promoted the suppression of Religious Theism by force. This is part of the historical record..by definition they were Militant Atheists, not to mention that they even labelled themselves as Militant Atheists.
It doesn't mean that all Atheists are militants, or that even all Atheists even define themselves the same way...no more than all Theists are defined the same way, even all Muslims are not defined the same way..like I said there is a huge ideological difference between Islam and Islamism just like there is fundamental ideological differences between the various forms of Socialism such as Marxism, Leninism, Trotskyism and so on...one of the underlying immutable requirements of Marxism-Leninism is however Atheism, to oppose and struggle against religion is one of the basic tenets of their revolutionary ideology.... Trotsky put it this way "for forty-three years of my life I have remained a revolutionary. I shall die a proletarian revolutionary, a Marxist, a dialectical materialist, and consequently an irreconcilable atheist."..this fundamental ideology is the very definition of Militant Atheism.
Like many terms it is important to point out (and I did earlier) that the term Militant when associated with either politics, theology or philosophy doesn't necessarily mean that a person is violent or part of a militia...it can simply mean that they are aggressive and combative in their style of debate or opposition...like a Militant Union Leader or an aggressively passionate and vocal Politician. The way it is applied to someone like Richard Dawkins (who can be militant although most of the time he is just overly passionate in my opinion) doesn't imply that he is akin to an Islamist Fundamentalist who calls for Military Jihad for example...they are two very distinct and different definitions and applications for the same terminology. The Militant Atheism seen in some Socialist ideologies can be categorised under both depending upon the precise example under discussion.
Julian Baggini tried to categorise the term Militant Atheism: "Atheism which is actively hostile to religion I would call militant. To be hostile in this sense requires more than just strong disagreement with religion - it requires something verging on hatred and is characterized by a desire to wipe out all forms of religious belief."...Marxist-Leninism and Stalinism are examples of the kind of Militant Atheism that Baggini is referring to.
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Soldato
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I am a devout Christian and I don't dismiss evolution. I am a Catholic along with 1.2 Billion others. Pope Pius XII declared in 1950 that there was no conflict between evolution and Christianity.
Just because a tiny proportion of Christians reject the theory of evolution, doesn't make it any way representative of Christianity in general.
Soldato
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I've always associated creationism with crazy yanks. Also love the ones who claim their religion is the correct one, condemning 6billion people to a hell they don't believe in
Atheism is to Marxist-Leninism as Theism is to Islamism. How each is predisposed and dictated is down to the interpretation. There is no ideal in Theism that dictates Militancy any more than there is in Atheism...however each can be applied in much the same way as I have demonstrated. The point being that the Meme that was posted originally is fundamentally flawed as Militant Atheism can manifest in much the same ways as Militant Theism, be it through Stalinism or Islamism as respective examples of each.
IIRC, the meme used Islam as an example? Which is what I'm talking about. Not theism as a whole.
Which atheist ideal dictates that Stalin should act as he did?
The question is easily answered with Islam.
The meme you posted gave a Christian Militant and an Islamist Militant and then used Richard Dawkins as an example of Militant Atheism...you stated that there are no atheists who are militant in the name of atheism, as statement which has been demonstrated to be incorrect over the last few pages. You have also been given the respective atheist ideologies, primarily Marxist-Leninist Atheism with quotes and references which led to such militant atheism and the atrocities done in its name in the very post you have selectively quoted.
Simply put, your meme and statement were incorrect as Militant Atheism (as a comparison to Religious Militancy) can be demonstrated by example and historical record.
Anyway I be explained my position as best I can, I am now just repeating myself and the debate seems to have hit a dead-end, so I'm leaving it there.
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My point here is about the ideologies as a whole. Atheism (being that it is disbelief in a god and nothing more) certainly has no violent ideals that dictate that Stalin should act as he did. He wished to further atheism, but that was not because the ideology (atheism, not his personal agenda) demanded this.
Islam has many ideals, one of which is violence towards non-believers. An Islamic extremists behaviour is dictated because his ideology (Islam, not his personal agenda) demanded it.
Surely you can see the contrast?
This is where we disagree. Obviously theism as a whole, correct. But many religions do. Such as Islam. Case in point.
E; would just like to add I'm not some "haha last word" freak, I take your point. If no reply we will agree to disagree.
Islam has many ideals, one of which is violence towards non-believers. An Islamic extremists behaviour is dictated because his ideology (Islam, not his personal agenda) demanded it.
Surely you can see the contrast?
This is where we disagree. Obviously theism as a whole, correct. But many religions do. Such as Islam. Case in point.
E; would just like to add I'm not some "haha last word" freak, I take your point. If no reply we will agree to disagree.
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Calling atheism common sense is just irrational. Using science and theories doesn't prove there isn't a God.
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Lenin atrocities were not done in the name of atheism, they were done in the name of marxist authoritarianism. He just happened to be an atheist. Just the same if someone murders someone and they are an atheist, we don't say immediately that it was done in the name of atheism. Thus there are hardly any militant atheists because not believing in god is realy not something that makes people want to act violently. Religion is the complete opposite, while not all violent acts done by religious people is done in the name of religion, it is far more likely for that to be the case than an atheist as religion has the capacity to do that.
I realy don't see how this is relevant to the thread. The topic has nothing to do with militant atheism.
I realy don't see how this is relevant to the thread. The topic has nothing to do with militant atheism.
It's not relevant at all but it is interesting.
I agree with Castiel that Stalinist communism did feature atheism, but atheism was not the motivation. Not could it truly be, as there are no atheist ideals, aside from the literal definition of the word.
Which is not the case with Islamist extremists (or militants).
This may sound like "no true Scotsman" fallacy, but an atheist who is militant and states he is militant in the name of atheism is not representative of atheist ideals (there are none!). He may be motivated by his own personal anti-theistic views, which is different.
Did we ban the OP yet?
The dude the OP is posting about is preaching to people who are curious about or currently don't hold atheist views.
If it has a preacher then it's a religion.
Off topic - are there any real theories of what was before the big bang? That nothing existed seems patently false. That all matter currently in existence either passed through or was at some point a singularity seems the most likely - but we have by definition no way of observing or measuring what happened prior to that - or even what physical laws applied.
The dude the OP is posting about is preaching to people who are curious about or currently don't hold atheist views.
If it has a preacher then it's a religion.
Off topic - are there any real theories of what was before the big bang? That nothing existed seems patently false. That all matter currently in existence either passed through or was at some point a singularity seems the most likely - but we have by definition no way of observing or measuring what happened prior to that - or even what physical laws applied.
You cant feel God with any one of your five senses, and this is common for every being currently capable of sensing things, therefore common sense in its most simplest and basic form dictates that there is no god.
Science and theories do not fall under common sense. They are not inherently common to everyone.
Eg. The inevitability of ice forming when water freezes is common sense because you are able to see it with your eyes and memorise the simple conclusion, but knowing about phase transition is scientific.
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You are comparing the wrong things...Islamism is a theist political manifestation, Marxist-Leninism is an atheist political manifestation. Islam no more demands violence than does Communism....that is the point, you are condemning the actions of one while apologising for the actions of the other...when if fact both can be used to promote a violent militant agenda. Theism is simply the belief in a God....like Atheism it is just a philosophical abstract, but the ideologies based on it can be violent or non violent depending upon the manifestation and use to which it is applied by the individual or group.
In the same way, obviously Atheism as a whole doesn't promote militancy, but then many atheist based political movements do, such as Stalinism, Maoism etc....case in point...you stated that there are no Atheists who were militant in the name of Atheism...you are fundamental incorrect, even if you cannot admit it to yourself.
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You might want to actually read up about Marxist-Leninist Atheism before making such incorrect statements. I find it wholly ironic that some people will accuse people of being apologists for religious political extremists when they say, quite correctly, that extremism is generally the result of the individual and group abusing their religion and Theism to further a political agenda, yet will do exactly the same when it comes to their own shared beliefs.
The topic is about what exactly?
The problem is that Marxist-Leninism has a fundamentally Militant Atheist basis as it demands the promotion of Atheism and the opposition to and the suppression of all forms of theism and their related religions. It creates, like some religious political movements the very ideals to which the agenda is supported. A Militant Atheist is not representative of atheists everywhere, but then neither is a Militant Islamist representative of Muslims (or even Islamists for that matter) everywhere either.
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