Australian GP 2009 - Race 1/17 (NOT in HD BTW)
- Thread starter jaykay
- Start date
fair enough, at least that's cleared this up and proves why fia should always listen and look to data feeds as standard. this could have all been sorted out in that hour after the race.
Lewis what happened: blah blah blah blah
McLaren please provide black box of data.
Stewards listen
Stewards: hamilton you have no case and remain 4th and for lying we will fine you xxthousands and 10 place drop on the next grid.
everyone's happy and it doesn't drag out over weeks.
On top of that race control should answer teams questions right away.
Wasting money would be keeping multiple enquiry teams in place 'just in case' also it would ruin any form of consistancy, which is something i hope the FIA are trying to fix, not make worse.
Well considering race control where a little busy, it would have been hard too. They should have known the rules imo.
there are alternative ways to limit time though. Lots of options for the FIA. Something clearly needs to be done.
Well to be fair, the teams are given the rules, its not like they break a rule then are shown the rules they broke. The teams spend a fortune on lawyers etc to read them. So surely if those lawyers are doing their jobs right, then all is well, if the lawyers do not understand the rules, they need to seek clarification.
I bet if it worked in McLarens favor they wouldn't moan about grey areas.
Take the diffuser row, Sam Michaels said that they got the rules, and sought clarification from the FIA immediately. It seems like a simple idea?
I don't understand this. Even most casual fans should know that if a car slides off the track like Trulli did under SC conditions then the cars behind don't just wait around for him to rejoin the track.
I am shocked TBH that McLaren felt the need to give the place back.
There is very clear and explicit line in the rules that was on their side.
yep, this is what f1 needs, in this instance I cannot blame the FIA
I agree with your thinking..
However, I have a niggling question over the transcript from LH, it sounds like Trulli straight-lined a corner or something, and was sat stationary on the track, now becuase LH had to actually overtake a stationary JT on track, I can see some confusion over whether this was 'legal' or not..
If JT went off the track, LH drove by, and JT re-joined behind LH, then it's very straight cut, but I'm not sure that happened..
Still, it doesn't excuse the lying in the slightest.. and am satisfied 100% that no matter who deserved 3rd, LH/Mc shot themselves in the foot.
JH went off the track LH had no option to pass him, This was legal. There is a bbc link a page or so back showing hamilton slowing and staying off the line to allow trulli back past.
From what I understand the original pass from Lewis was perfectly legal but the Mclaren team didn't know that Trulli had left the track and told him to give the place back.
Lewis now questioned if he needed to give the position back as Trulli had left the track but during this time Trulli had already re passed Lewis and according to Mclaren their data shows Lewis didn't slow down to to allow Trulli to pass.
Twice Mclaren told Lewis to allow Trulli past without knowing the full facts and probably due to this indecision from the team confused the matter and Trulli was past.
Now listening to the Tapes from the Toyota team radio (on youtube) Trulli told his team that Lewis had passed him and was he in his right to re pass him (which he had already done), the team asked if Lewis had passed under Yellows or Safety car and Trulli said yes but Trulli never told the team that he had left the track.
At no time of the tape does Trulli say that Hamilton had slowed down to let him pass, he just says that he has retaken the position but then goes on to say that he himself had slowed down twice to allow Hamilton to retake the position but Lewis wouldn't pass him.
Yes Mclaren had wrongly told Lewis to allow Trulli back through but did Lewis actually wilfully comply with the order while he was still questioning it ?
Also even if he did slow down should Trulli have retaken the position anyway, Trulli was doubting him self afterwards and slowed down to allow Lewis back through twice but Lewis kept position as per the Yellow Flag and safety car rules.
I thing the penalty Trulli got was harsh but what penalty could they have given, I also think the Hamilton penalty is out of line also as the FIA had all the information to hand at the time and should have know of the radio conversations (from both teams) before the case was heard and even if the team told Lewis to let him pass doesn't mean he actually complied with the order, Toyota told Trulli not to pass Hamilton but he did what he thought was right ...neither teams had the full facts when making their decisions.
Lewis now questioned if he needed to give the position back as Trulli had left the track but during this time Trulli had already re passed Lewis and according to Mclaren their data shows Lewis didn't slow down to to allow Trulli to pass.
Twice Mclaren told Lewis to allow Trulli past without knowing the full facts and probably due to this indecision from the team confused the matter and Trulli was past.
Now listening to the Tapes from the Toyota team radio (on youtube) Trulli told his team that Lewis had passed him and was he in his right to re pass him (which he had already done), the team asked if Lewis had passed under Yellows or Safety car and Trulli said yes but Trulli never told the team that he had left the track.
At no time of the tape does Trulli say that Hamilton had slowed down to let him pass, he just says that he has retaken the position but then goes on to say that he himself had slowed down twice to allow Hamilton to retake the position but Lewis wouldn't pass him.
Yes Mclaren had wrongly told Lewis to allow Trulli back through but did Lewis actually wilfully comply with the order while he was still questioning it ?
Also even if he did slow down should Trulli have retaken the position anyway, Trulli was doubting him self afterwards and slowed down to allow Lewis back through twice but Lewis kept position as per the Yellow Flag and safety car rules.
I thing the penalty Trulli got was harsh but what penalty could they have given, I also think the Hamilton penalty is out of line also as the FIA had all the information to hand at the time and should have know of the radio conversations (from both teams) before the case was heard and even if the team told Lewis to let him pass doesn't mean he actually complied with the order, Toyota told Trulli not to pass Hamilton but he did what he thought was right ...neither teams had the full facts when making their decisions.
It really is the crux of the matter as far as whether Trulli should be punished for overtaking under a safety car situation, yes.
Although if Hamilton or Ryan really did unambiguously lie to the FIA in response to a straight question then a penalty is in order. However, I don't see that it should have related to the Australian result; a fine, or future penalty, would have been more apt for what was an entirely off track incident.
I think that LH probably did "lie" in the stewards meeting. But he was doing it under "duress" as they say, i.e. his boss told him to do it.
Because before the stewards meeting he was giving press interviews and then his account was entirely different to what he supposedly told the stewards.
This implies that McLaren fed him a new story to tell the stewards in order to maliciously recover the 3rd place that the team had lost for him in the first place.
McLaren were working on a principle where they've probably had repeated success with seasons gone by where the stewards just want to make a quick decision without reviewing all the evidence so they can leave the track and go home for their dinner. So they played it dumb and just nodded "no sir" when asked about the team order to let Trulli pass.
Clearly that plan has backfired big time. Someone at the top of the FIA has obviously got involved after reading press articles on the matter and done some research of the recordings etc by himself. Then he would have contacted the stewards and asked them if they wouldn't mind flying over to Malaysia and get put up a 5-star hotel and free tickets to see the race...
It all adds up for me now really.
I have a growing opinion that LH would be better off leaving McLaren. As sorry and sad as that sounds. I just think McLaren have a habit of causing these problems for themselves and it is starting to affect LH's career now. For christ sake he almost lost the WDC last year due, in part, to McLaren's incompetence.
Because before the stewards meeting he was giving press interviews and then his account was entirely different to what he supposedly told the stewards.
This implies that McLaren fed him a new story to tell the stewards in order to maliciously recover the 3rd place that the team had lost for him in the first place.
McLaren were working on a principle where they've probably had repeated success with seasons gone by where the stewards just want to make a quick decision without reviewing all the evidence so they can leave the track and go home for their dinner. So they played it dumb and just nodded "no sir" when asked about the team order to let Trulli pass.
Clearly that plan has backfired big time. Someone at the top of the FIA has obviously got involved after reading press articles on the matter and done some research of the recordings etc by himself. Then he would have contacted the stewards and asked them if they wouldn't mind flying over to Malaysia and get put up a 5-star hotel and free tickets to see the race...
It all adds up for me now really.
I have a growing opinion that LH would be better off leaving McLaren. As sorry and sad as that sounds. I just think McLaren have a habit of causing these problems for themselves and it is starting to affect LH's career now. For christ sake he almost lost the WDC last year due, in part, to McLaren's incompetence.
It sounds like nobody knew the convoluted rules or how the FIA would choose to interpret them on that particular weekend. The fact is Trulli should have been moved to 4th, his correct position and anything else is just damaging to the sport.
I agree with quite a few here - there is hardly any point watching F1 any more, the results aren't decided on the track.
I agree with quite a few here - there is hardly any point watching F1 any more, the results aren't decided on the track.
You said it, not me!
I find it hard to believe that McLaren wouldn't know the rule, it's just that Hamilton says to his engineer "the Toyota went off the (racing) line and I overtook him is that okay?", his engineer responds that he'll look into it and Lewis follows up by saying "he was off the track, he went wide" but it's not clear if his engineer heard the latter, so he probably thought Trulli was still on the track when Hamilton took him.
I think again it comes down to Hamilton's inexperience, he should have known himself that what he did was legal. I still believe 4th place and a huge fine for McLaren's alleged post-race antics would have been the fairest result.
I think again it comes down to Hamilton's inexperience, he should have known himself that what he did was legal. I still believe 4th place and a huge fine for McLaren's alleged post-race antics would have been the fairest result.
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Apparently the latest is that the 'further reaching consequences' could actually mean the FIA kick McLaren out of F1.
Im going to say it, and stand by it untill im proved wrong, someone high up in F1 or the FIA has a prejudice against McLaren or Hamilton, and im not going to rule out that it is to do with the colour of his skin.
Can, worms, I dont care. There is no clear reason for why the FIA seems determined to be against McLaren. Who said what has nothing to do with what happened on track. All the information is available but the Stewards didnt use it, instead using the verbal accounts of people. Removing McLaren from F1 would be the death of the sport, as I feel Mercedes would go to, taking Force India and Brawn with them.
Im going to say it, and stand by it untill im proved wrong, someone high up in F1 or the FIA has a prejudice against McLaren or Hamilton, and im not going to rule out that it is to do with the colour of his skin.
Can, worms, I dont care. There is no clear reason for why the FIA seems determined to be against McLaren. Who said what has nothing to do with what happened on track. All the information is available but the Stewards didnt use it, instead using the verbal accounts of people. Removing McLaren from F1 would be the death of the sport, as I feel Mercedes would go to, taking Force India and Brawn with them.
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