Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

Zethor · 9 Jul 2014 at 14:39

This is a bad time to be a religious nutter. If you live in developed countries you lose lawsuits, if you live in underdeveloped ones you bomb or get bombed by other religious nutters.

fornowagain · 9 Jul 2014 at 14:44

TheLegendOfMart said:
It's not a "Christian Bakery" at all, there is no way they could have known the owners/operators were Christian either.

If we are all going to make ridiculous statements then I'm going to go ahead and say they are intolerant of gays and they are just using the bible so they don't get sued.

I'm not so sure about that considering the bakers is named Asher(s), i.e. the blessed son of Jacob and one of the 12 tribes of Israel and that the complainant is an activist from the QueerSpace pressure group.

Zethor · 9 Jul 2014 at 14:46

fornowagain said:
I'm not so sure about that considering the bakers is named Asher, i.e. the blessed son of Jacob and one of the 12 tribes of Israel .....

I'm named after a saint and I'm a rabid Atheist.

pitchfork · 9 Jul 2014 at 14:46

spoffle said:
Yeah, no, I'm talking about the specific statement you made prior.

I'm just saying transvestites are in some way related to the LGBT moment.

spoffle · 9 Jul 2014 at 14:48

Not really no, as it's got nothing to do with sexuality.

TheLegendOfMart · 9 Jul 2014 at 15:10

fornowagain said:
I'm not so sure about that considering the bakers is named Asher(s), i.e. the blessed son of Jacob and one of the 12 tribes of Israel and that the complainant is an activist from the QueerSpace pressure group.

What, like the group of bakers in Scotland who make whiskey cakes who are also called Ashers but are unrelated to the one in Northern Ireland?

It is run by a Christian but it doesn't mean it was founded by a Christian.

Even if it was, I don't go and google who founded the company when I go to buy something, they just selected a bakery to make the cake, it's not like they selected them on purpose.

pitchfork said:
I'm just saying transvestites are in some way related to the LGBT moment.

They really aren't. Dressing up in opposite genders clothes has nothing to do with having a gender identity of the opposite sex. They aren't turned away just like straight "allies" of the gay community aren't turned away.

Redz · 9 Jul 2014 at 15:18

I wonder if they have an issue with selling fairy cakes.

pitchfork · 9 Jul 2014 at 15:21

spoffle said:
Not really no, as it's got nothing to do with sexuality.

Dressing up like a woman has nothing to do with sexuality?

krooton · 9 Jul 2014 at 15:55

pitchfork said:
Dressing up like a woman has nothing to do with sexuality?

No, as transvestites can be heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual, the sexuality doesn't define a transvestite.

Neil79 · 9 Jul 2014 at 15:57

Janesy B said:
It's up to them.

wndsr · 9 Jul 2014 at 15:59

As far as I'm concerned if you operate as a business you should not discriminate against anybody as your personal beliefs should not come into it.

What if my local bank refused to open me an account because who I am clashed with one of their beliefs?

What if a homosexual person were to apply for a job with them, would they turn them down on the grounds of religious beliefs?

krooton · 9 Jul 2014 at 16:19

wndsr said:
As far as I'm concerned if you operate as a business you should not discriminate against anybody as your personal beliefs should not come into it.

What if my local bank refused to open me an account because who I am clashed with one of their beliefs?

What if a homosexual person were to apply for a job with them, would they turn them down on the grounds of religious beliefs?

Again, they were not refused based on who they were, the same answer would have been given to any other sexually orientated people requesting the specifics of that cake. Ergo no one is being discriminated against, the content/design is simply being refused.

wndsr · 9 Jul 2014 at 16:23

krooton said:
Again, they were not refused based on who they were, the same answer would have been given to any other sexually orientated people requesting the specifics of that cake. Ergo no one is being discriminated against, the content/design is simply being refused.

My point still stands. As far as I'm concerned, a business should not pick and choose what work to complete based on their personal beliefs. I believe if you decide to set yourself up as a company, you forfeit your own personal beliefs.

If you're a sole trader on the other hand, you're just a bloke baking a cake so you can do what you want.

RDM · 9 Jul 2014 at 16:25

krooton said:
Again, they were not refused based on who they were, the same answer would have been given to any other sexually orientated people requesting the specifics of that cake. Ergo no one is being discriminated against, the content/design is simply being refused.

But it is being refused due to sexuality so it would be covered by equality legislation, hence the involvement of the Equality commission.

Saying they are not discriminating is like saying that the previous rules on marriage didn't discriminate because gay men had exactly the same rights to marry a woman as heterosexual men.

Tombo · 9 Jul 2014 at 16:29

wndsr said:
My point still stands. As far as I'm concerned, a business should not pick and choose what work to complete based on their personal beliefs. I believe if you decide to set yourself up as a company, you forfeit your own personal beliefs.

If you're a sole trader on the other hand, you're just a bloke baking a cake so you can do what you want.

What about if a black baker refused to bake a cake with white pride iced on it, nothing about white power even just white pride.

wndsr · 9 Jul 2014 at 16:31

Tombo said:
What about if a black baker refused to bake a cake with white pride iced on it, nothing about white power even just white pride.

I'm not concerned about the specifics, simply that a business should not make decisions based on personal beliefs.

I feel the same about staff in supermarkets refusing to sell meat or alcohol. As far as I am concerned, that person should not be allowed to refuse service based on their beliefs.

dowie · 9 Jul 2014 at 16:32

wndsr said:
My point still stands. As far as I'm concerned, a business should not pick and choose what work to complete based on their personal beliefs. I believe if you decide to set yourself up as a company, you forfeit your own personal beliefs.

If you're a sole trader on the other hand, you're just a bloke baking a cake so you can do what you want.

So we then go back to an Asian printers being asked to produce BNP fliers etc....

Businesses have every right to turn down custom work they don't support/believe in. They're turning down the work being proposed not the customer.

wndsr · 9 Jul 2014 at 16:33

dowie said:
So we then go back to an Asian printers being asked to produce BNP fliers etc....

Businesses have every right to turn down custom work they don't support/believe in. They're turning down the work being proposed not the customer.

Turning down the proposed work based on their personal beliefs.

I don't think there will ever be a right or wrong answer.

dowie · 9 Jul 2014 at 16:33

wndsr said:
I'm not concerned about the specifics, simply that a business should not make decisions based on personal beliefs.

I feel the same about staff in supermarkets refusing to sell meat or alcohol. As far as I am concerned, that person should not be allowed to refuse service based on their beliefs.

But that relates to individual employees - it's still up to a business whether to supply alcohol or halal/non halal meat etc...

dowie · 9 Jul 2014 at 16:38

wndsr said:
Turning down the proposed work based on their personal beliefs.

I don't think there will ever be a right or wrong answer.

I do

I think the right answer is that the creative, self employed person gets to pick and chose whatever custom jobs he/she likes. As long as he/she isn't simply turning down work based on who the customer is but rather on the basis of what the work requires creating then it's up to them. You can't force an artist, photographer, journalist, author or even baker to create something they don't agree with.

They haven't refused to sell them a cake they've refused to create a very specific cake containing a jokey cartoon and a political message.