Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

[RDM]

Firstly, I didn’t say it was open to interpretation, you’re trying to argue black is white when the facts are there for all to read yet everyone has an opinion on a book that most haven’t read.

They fact that there are so many Christian denominations with so many differing views on many aspects would suggest that the Bible is indeed, very much open to interpretation.

I am well aware the UK follows Common Law but the point is that these cake shop owners are Christians and go by the bible – some people are unwilling to compromise and that is that.

It might be then that running a business is not for you if you unwilling to compromise and obey the law of the country you are working in.

 

[RDM]

So what would be the economic implication of a cake makers reluctantly making a gay cake?

I should probably stop you right here for your own sanity, the person you are debating with is groen, a well thought out reasoned debate really isn't on his radar.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

The economic implications is not on the cake maker refusing to make cakes for whatever reason or the pamplet producer refusing to make pamplets for whatever reason or the club refusing entry for whatever reason. The economic implication comes about when the special treatment and favours commission forces business to make cakes when they don't want to, forces pamplet producers to make pamplets when they don't want to and forces clubs to let people in when they don't want to.

Business should have the right to decide who they want to do business with. Maybe australian people ripped this one guy off one time and from now on he does not want to do business with australians, that is his right as someone who is doing business that would be a bit silly and he will lose out for sure, but it is the business owners right to do that.

If i am selling a painting and i want it to go to someone who will appreciate it then someone says they want to buy it and he happens to be gay. Then i don't think he will appreciate it because he doesn't know enough about art. Then that is the sellers prerogative. You can't start forcing sellers to do business that is just not how capitalism works. That is exactly how marxist communism works however.r People are forced to do business.

All I see is I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot.

What if someone slights a bigot and the bigot then tars all of one section of society with the same brush, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot.

Oh I'm a bigot.

 

[boxman2000]

If I follow the Old Testament and take slaves then I shouldn't be punished by the ACTUAL laws?

Are you Jewish?

They fact that there are so many Christian denominations with so many differing views on many aspects would suggest that the Bible is indeed, very much open to interpretation.

It might be then that running a business is not for you if you unwilling to compromise and obey the law of the country you are working in.

Sadly your right, opinion and interpretation have come in where it isn't actually needed, purely because it doesn't fit in with someone's view of what God is.

I agree but there again do we know for sure that the shop owners refused to make them the cake or suggest alternative wording other than the wording requested? I would be surprised if they flatly refused to deal with the couple because they were gay.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Doesn't matter whether I'm an athiest, jewish, christian, etc..

The bible isn't law, follow it all you want.

 

[RDM]

Are you Jewish?

If he was would it make any difference to your answer? I know my answer would be the same regardless. No, slavery is not OK regardless of your scripture says.

 

[anything I don't mind]

All I see is I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot.

What if someone slights a bigot and the bigot then tars all of one section of society with the same brush, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot.

Oh I'm a bigot.

This is how i imagined your brain to work.

 

[233]

Have you ever been beat up or discriminated against purely because you were a white, straight, male?

That's why there are minority groups, so that people can meet and chat with like minded people who are in the same situation about things that affect them, the fact that you can only see it as a slight against the white male justifies their existence.

There is a reason why there is no straight pride day, every freaking day is straight pride day, TV shows, movies, advertising, books, music, all aimed at straight people.

the thing is i am discriminated against, thanks to positive discrimination as a straight white male i am at a disadvantage. as organisations fall over themselves to be diverse and inclusive its at the expense of my group.

why should i have to be overlooked for an inferior candidate for a job because i'm a straight white male so a company can meet their diversity targets?

if i apply to be on a public body or want to stand an elected representative i could find myself at a perfectly legal disadvantage because of what i am. for example political parties drawing up all female shortlists.

why is it deemed acceptable to have a women only club or gym but not a male equivalent? it seems discrimination is only discrimination if its against a supposed minority group

 

[jcr]

Think I might order a cake off this baker

 

[boxman2000]

If he was would it make any difference to your answer? I know my answer would be the same regardless. No, slavery is not OK regardless of your scripture says.

No because if you'd read my previous comment the scripture shows this has been superseded, not my interpretation, clearly shown in the New Testament.

Trouble is when people pick out a verse here and there to prove these sorts of views is that a text without a context which is a pretext. Which is where interpretation, metaphors etc can come in.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

the thing is i am discriminated against, thanks to positive discrimination as a straight white male i am at a disadvantage. as organisations fall over themselves to be diverse and inclusive its at the expense of my group.

why should i have to be overlooked for an inferior candidate for a job because i'm a straight white male so a company can meet their diversity targets?

if i apply to be on a public body or want to stand an elected representative i could find myself at a perfectly legal disadvantage because of what i am. for example political parties drawing up all female shortlists.

why is it deemed acceptable to have a women only club or gym but not a male equivalent? it seems discrimination is only discrimination if its against a supposed minority group

Maybe you have an inkling of how minorities feel, for some reason you are outraged even though being a straight, white male is still in a position of privilege.

Imagine feeling discriminated against and people just tell you to shut up and deal with it. Fancy that.

 

[anything I don't mind]

Business will suffer the consequences for their actions. If they do not want to do business with x and y people then they will lose a chunk of their market of the x and y. Not only the x and y people but also people that are not happy that the business does not want to do business with x and y people will also boycott. This means that business have an incentive to do business with people or else their reputation will be ruined.

Are jews forced to sell non kosher meats? are muslim's forced to sell pork products? are christians forced to sell cakes for gay weddings? are african's forced to do business with the kkk? That's different.

 

[RDM]

No because if you'd read my previous comment the scripture shows this has been superseded, not my interpretation, clearly shown in the New Testament.

Trouble is when people pick out a verse here and there to prove these sorts of views is that a text without a context is a pretext. Which is where interpretation, metaphors etc can come in.

However if he was Jewish, then his scripture would not have been superseded, but my answer would still be "Stuff your scripture, slavery is wrong!".

 

[boxman2000]

Are jews forced to sell non kosher meats? are muslim's forced to sell pork products? are christians forced to sell cakes for gay weddings?

No, no and apparently yes.

 

[Tombo]

All I see is I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot.

What if someone slights a bigot and the bigot then tars all of one section of society with the same brush, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot, I'm a bigot.

Oh I'm a bigot.

If you keep calling everyone who you disagree with a bigot it'll start to lose it's edge and seem like a bit of an empty insu...oh wait. Now he may be one but saying it ten times in a single sentence is going to make people ignore the word.

Maybe you have an inkling of how minorities feel, for some reason you are outraged even though being a straight, white male is still in a position of privilege.

Imagine feeling discriminated against and people just tell you to shut up and deal with it. Fancy that.

Fighting discrimination with discrimination isn't going to solve anything, this is why the whole I'm intolerant of the intolerant seems so illogical to me, if you're not willing to tolerate other peoples views then how can you expect them to do the same.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Business will suffer the consequences for their actions. If they do not want to do business with x and y people then they will lose a chunk of their market of the x and y. Not only the x and y people but also people that are not happy that the business does not want to do business with x and y people will also boycott. This means that business have an incentive to do business with people or else their reputation will be ruined.

Are jews forced to sell non kosher meats? are muslim's forced to sell pork products? are christians forced to sell cakes for gay weddings? are african's forced to do business with the kkk? That's different.

Ashers don't advertise themselves as being a Christian Bakery that only sells "straight" cakes. If they did then maybe "the gays" would have gone to a different bakery. You can't operate a public business that doesn't target a specific market then deny a product to someone just because it is against their beliefs, that is the law.

If you keep calling everyone who you disagree with a bigot it'll start to lose it's edge and seem like a bit of an empty insu...oh wait. Now he may be one but saying it ten times in a single post or sentence is going to make people ignore the word.

I haven't called anyone a bigot in this thread other than that joker.

 

[RDM]

If you keep calling everyone who you disagree with a bigot it'll start to lose it's edge and seem like a bit of an empty insu...oh wait.

It's groen. Personally if I found myself on the same side of an argument as groen I would really have to reconsider my position as it is probably wrong.

 

[233]

Maybe you have an inkling of how minorities feel, for some reason you are outraged even though being a straight, white male is still in a position of privilege.

Imagine feeling discriminated against and people just tell you to shut up and deal with it. Fancy that.

but why replace one form of discrimination with another, why promote one group over another because of their sex, creed, colour or sexual preferences?

surely any form of discrimination should be frowned upon regardless of whether or not its addressing a perceived imbalance.


in regards to the baker above though, why is the bakers beliefs held in a lesser regard to that of the customers?


unless i've missed something the baker has not refused service, only refused to provide a service which he feels he does not agree with

 

[cheesyboy]

the thing is i am discriminated against, thanks to positive discrimination as a straight white male i am at a disadvantage. as organisations fall over themselves to be diverse and inclusive its at the expense of my group.

why should i have to be overlooked for an inferior candidate for a job because i'm a straight white male so a company can meet their diversity targets?

if i apply to be on a public body or want to stand an elected representative i could find myself at a perfectly legal disadvantage because of what i am. for example political parties drawing up all female shortlists.

why is it deemed acceptable to have a women only club or gym but not a male equivalent? it seems discrimination is only discrimination if its against a supposed minority group

Do you understand the reasoning behind positive discrimination?

You, as a straight white male, have all the advantage that being in those powerful groups brings with it. There are historic reasons for this, but the end result is that your demographic is given structural advantage which manifests itself as over-representation in many industries.

Positive discrimination is simply re-balancing this unfair, unearned advantage.

Whether PD is the best way of doing this is debatable, of course.

 

[krooton]

Whether PD is the best way of doing this is debatable, of course.

Certainly isn't working in South Africa.