Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

[Frightful Boar]

why is it deemed acceptable to have a women only club or gym but not a male equivalent? it seems discrimination is only discrimination if its against a supposed minority group

Yep, that's about right.

Imagine feeling discriminated against and people just tell you to shut up and deal with it. Fancy that.

Which is what I would say if a white male told me they were feeling discriminated against in the UK. I think there should be more shutting up and dealing with it. Rather than just shutting up or twisting on like a little girl.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

but why replace one form of discrimination with another, why promote one group over another because of their sex, creed, colour or sexual preferences?

surely any form of discrimination should be frowned upon regardless of whether or not its addressing a perceived imbalance.


in regards to the baker above though, why is the bakers beliefs held in a lesser regard to that of the customers?


unless i've missed something the baker has not refused service, only refused to provide a service which he feels he does not agree with

I never said it was right, I hate positive discrimination as much as anything, no one should have more right to something just because they are a minority.

The gays weren't asking for a special gay cake, it uses the same ingredients as a straight one, I suspect they refused because they were gay not because of some political message and are now hiding behind the bible so they don't get screwed over by law.

Which is what I would say if a white male told me they were feeling discriminated against in the UK. I think there should be more shutting up and dealing with it. Rather than just shutting up or twisting on like a little girl.

Yeah, no. Gays and muslims still get beat up and killed in the street purely because of what they are, go tell the muslim girl who got stabbed 16 times and died purely because she was a muslim and wearing a niqab to just get on with it.

 

[RDM]

but why replace one form of discrimination with another, why promote one group over another because of their sex, creed, colour or sexual preferences?

surely any form of discrimination should be frowned upon regardless of whether or not its addressing a perceived imbalance.

I am not a fan in any way shape or form of positive discrimination, I feel that there are generally better ways of dealing with things. However sometimes it might be a necessary evil if other approaches have been taken and are still not working.

There is however a difference in being discriminated against and having an advantage taken away from you. So for example the removal of the UK blasphemy laws was not an attack on Christianity, it was a removal of an advantage they had.

in regards to the baker above though, why is the bakers beliefs held in a lesser regard to that of the customers?


unless i've missed something the baker has not refused service, only refused to provide a service which he feels he does not agree with

If you open a business you are not allowed to discriminate (directly or indirectly) on certain grounds. Which in Northern Ireland are even wider than in the rest of the UK. If that is a problem for you because of your faith, then perhaps you shouldn't run a business?

 

[anything I don't mind]

Ashers don't advertise themselves as being a Christian Bakery that only sells "straight" cakes. If they did then maybe "the gays" would have gone to a different bakery. You can't operate a public business that doesn't target a specific market then deny a product to someone just because it is against their beliefs, that is the law.



I haven't called anyone a bigot in this thread other than that joker.

Wrong, if they did advertise themselves as a straight cake producer the likes of yourself would be complaining to the special treatment and favours commission to have them closed down for being a bigot.

It is the same as that B&B not wanting to allow certain guests. If hotel or B&B can not decide what guests they allow in and its up to some arbitrary third party who has no idea how to run a b&B then that has serious economic implications. People are constantly discriminating when they do business and all types of factors, just like when they hire someone. Yes, i don't agree that someone should not want to sell pork products as i am not religious, but you can't force people otherwise where do you draw the line? I am guessing you draw the line where it suits your own interests.

 

[Frightful Boar]

Do you understand the reasoning behind positive discrimination?

You, as a straight white male, have all the advantage that being in those powerful groups brings with it. There are historic reasons for this, but the end result is that your demographic is given structural advantage which manifests itself as over-representation in many industries.

Positive discrimination is simply re-balancing this unfair, unearned advantage.

Whether PD is the best way of doing this is debatable, of course.

Positive discrimination is the height of hand holding weakness. It's pathetic.

I'm a straight white male so I would think that and I'll admit it. If other straight white males have worked hard to give us the edge, why wouldn't I want to take advantage of that.

The best way of creating some sort of equality is for other demographics to push their way up. There are countless examples of individuals from other demographics doing so so it's not impossible.

 

[Tombo]

It's groen. Personally if I found myself on the same side of an argument as groen I would really have to reconsider my position as it is probably wrong.

I'm just saying that overusing words isn't the best idea.

I haven't called anyone a bigot in this thread other than that joker.

Fair enough but I'd hate it to get to the point where every other word is bigot or racist, even if it was true.

 

[RDM]

I'm a straight white male so I would think that and I'll admit it. If other straight white males have worked hard to give us the edge, why wouldn't I want to take advantage of that.

So you aren't actually interested in people being hired on their own merits but rather on something arbitrary as what gender or skin colour they have?

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Wrong, if they did advertise themselves as a straight cake producer the likes of yourself would be complaining to the special treatment and favours commission to have them closed down for being a bigot.

It is the same as that B&B not wanting to allow certain guests. If hotel or B&B can not decide what guests they allow in and its up to some arbitrary third party who has no idea how to run a b&B then that has serious economic implications. People are constantly discriminating when they do business and all types of factors, just like when they hire someone. Yes, i don't agree that someone should not want to sell pork products as i am not religious, but you can't force people otherwise where do you draw the line? I am guessing you draw the line where it suits your own interests.

I wouldn't be complaining to any commission, I haven't in this situation and I wouldn't in any other situation. I am just partaking in a discussion on a message board.

I have no issue with kosher or halal only butchers/shops, I know I have a choice. If I went in and they refused to serve me because I am a white male and am not jewish or muslim then I would have a problem.

If a Christian baker advertised that he only makes cakes that follow the Christian belief then I would go to one that doesn't. In this case they aren't and are now trying to justify it by pointing at a bible.

I'm just saying that overusing words isn't the best idea.


Fair enough but I'd hate it to get to the point where every other word is bigot or racist, even if it was true.

Yeah I did go a bit over the top but what else can you say to someone who hates women, jews, gays, blacks, muslims, etc..

 

[RDM]

I'm just saying that overusing words isn't the best idea.


Fair enough but I'd hate it to get to the point where every other word is bigot or racist, even if it was true.

We haven't really got to that point or are anywhere near it. The closest we have so far is the comparisons of gay marriage to all evils under the sun.

 

[233]

I never said it was right, I hate positive discrimination as much as anything, no one should have more right to something just because they are a minority.

The gays weren't asking for a special gay cake, it uses the same ingredients as a straight one, I suspect they refused because they were gay not because of some political message and are now hiding behind the bible so they don't get screwed over by law.

they weren't asking for a gay cake but wanted the words "queerspace" on the cake.

whilst it might not be a openly gay cake its certainly has a political element to it which many might not be comfortable with.

one of my wifes creations for an example (just so happened to be for a lesbian couple)

perfectly fine,

if you wanted to add various pro gay slogans i'm sure many people would suddenly find themselves uncomfortable with it

 

[boxman2000]

However if he was Jewish, then his scripture would not have been superseded, but my answer would still be "Stuff your scripture, slavery is wrong!".

I agree, slavery is wrong. What's your point?

The bible doesn't condone it in the form it is today, I explained before. Actually if you read up on your history you will see in England for example, at the time of John Wesley crusades, those that were saved released their slaves of their own choice as it was incompatible with living a Christian life.

Look at the life of John Newton, the guy was a slave trader, became a Christian and then set out to make a change in abolishing slavery with his friend and politician William Wilberforce.

Actually I find these comments HIGHLY offensive as my family has personal involvement in an anti-trafficking charity (A21 Campaign) which is involved in setting up shelters throughout parts of Europe for women and children that have been caught up in sex trafficking.

It's not a case of hitting a nerve but actually offending me deeply as some of the stories I've heard and even spoken publically about are absolutely sickening. To suggest Christianity supports this is simply untrue and quite frankly proves people’s ignorance.

Do you really think that the bible supports the abduction of young children so that they can be butchered and their organs can be sold on the black market? Do you really think that the bible supports the selling of women, young children and toddlers in order to be raped on a daily basis so that most will die of wounds within months?

 

[anything I don't mind]

This is what i didn't understand. Surely if its a gay wedding all you have to do is order a wedding cake and then put two men figurine on top instead of a men and women, job done. Instead they have to turn everything in to a political statement. Its boring.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Christianity offends me deeply with its inconsistent interpretations of verses they pick and choose to justify/support their beliefs and agendas, but what can you do about it.

This is what i didn't understand. Surely if its a gay wedding all you have to do is order a wedding cake and then put two men figurine on top instead of a men and women, job done. Instead they have to turn everything in to a political statement. Its boring.

Did you bother reading what the cake was for or did you just join the thread because it had gay in the title?

"The cake was ordered for an International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia event"

 

[spoffle]

Christianity offends me deeply with its inconsistent interpretations of verses they pick and choose to justify/support their beliefs and agendas, but what can you do about it.

You mean Christians, rather than Christianity itself.

 

[Frightful Boar]

So you aren't actually interested in people being hired on their own merits but rather on something arbitrary as what gender or skin colour they have?

Don't try to draw conclusions mate, you're terrible at it. That's absolutely not what I've said or believe.

I'll say it so even you can understand it and you won't have to twist my words or draw any more conclusions...

If a person's hiring preference is a straight, white male, that's fine with me. If their preference is a gay, chinese female, that's also fine with me and to heck with them. While I appreciate that a predilection for straight, white males may be more common, positive discrimination is terrible. People who aren't straight, white males should even the playing field by becoming as, if not more, appealing.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

You mean Christians, rather than Christianity itself.

Yeah sorry I was half reading while typing and trying to follow fast moving thread, I also meant some Christians, not all.

Don't try to draw conclusions mate, you're terrible at it. That's absolutely not what I've said or believe.

I'll say it so even you can understand it and you won't have to twist my words or draw any more conclusions...

If a person's hiring preference is a straight, white male, that's fine with me. If their preference is a gay, chinese female, that's also fine with me and to heck with them. While I appreciate that a predilection for straight, white males may be more common, positive discrimination is terrible. People who aren't straight, white males should even the playing field by becoming as, if not more, appealing.

How do minorities become "more appealing" when people like you and anything I don't mind exist. The only reason they are less appealing is because they are considered "less than".

 

[RDM]

I agree, slavery is wrong. What's your point?

The point is that other peoples scripture does not see slavery as objectively wrong. Therefore using scripture to support a position (which is what you are doing with homosexuality) is not really relevant.

I am not saying that Christianity condones slavery (though in the past it has). I am saying that recourse to scripture to support something that is wrong does not suddenly make it right.

The bible doesn't condone it in the form it is today, I explained before. Actually if you read up on your history you will see in England for example, at the time of John Wesley crusades, those that were saved released their slaves of their own choice as it was incompatible with living a Christian life.

Look at the life of John Newton, the guy was a slave trader, became a Christian and then set out to make a change in abolishing slavery with his friend and politician William Wilberforce.

And yet on the other side of the debate at that time you also had Christians supporting slavery. For every John Newton there was a James H Thornwell.

Actually I find these comments HIGHLY offensive as my family has personal involvement in an anti-trafficking charity (A21 Campaign) which is involved in setting up shelters throughout parts of Europe for women and children that have been caught up in sex trafficking.

It's not a case of hitting a nerve but actually offending me deeply as some of the stories I've heard and even spoken publically about are absolutely sickening. To suggest Christianity supports this is simply untrue and quite frankly proves people’s ignorance.

Have you considered that your views on homosexuality might also deeply offend others? Especially using scripture to support it?

Do you really think that the bible supports the abduction of young children so that they can be butchered and their organs can be sold on the black market? Do you really think that the bible supports the selling of women, young children and toddlers in order to be raped on a daily basis so that most will die of wounds within months?

I never said it did.

 

[233]

the question is though, why is it only the purchasers that can be offended and not the shops owners.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

the question is though, why is it only the purchasers that can be offended and not the shops owners.

They can be offended all they want, unfortunately there is no law against the making of gay cakes, there is against discrimination.

 

[Frightful Boar]

How do minorities become "more appealing" when people like you and anything I don't mind exist. The only reason they are less appealing is because they are considered "less than".

Really? You can't figure it out?

They could

• work harder
• be more polite
• commit to their role better
• be more punctual

The list could go on. And probably as you're going to argue, this is how it would work.

I'm a random employer, I hire a woman for a job I'd really rather a man do because I prefer to hire men, but obviously she's made a really huge effort in learning about my company and the job. She's always on time for work, does her job brilliantly, never complains and tries to introduce new things to her role to increase her productivity.

This makes it more likely that I will hire another woman because she is making women more appealing as employees.

I consider blondes less attractive than brunettes but I'd do one if she had big enough breasts. If that makes it easier to understand for "people like you"