Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

cheesyboy · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:08

Rroff said:
From the discussion with the manager, etc. it doesn't seem its something they took lightly or purely down to to (irrational) homophobia. No different really from them deciding to turn down producing another cake that had features they couldn't reconcile with their beliefs i.e. if someone wanted something that was blasphemous to their religion.

That wouldn't be "no different" because, in that case, the requestorof the cake would be the discriminatory one. So completely opposite

dowie · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:09

dirtychinchilla said:
That would be fine as a muslim chooses their religion, as does a christian.

but the law prohibits discrimination on the basis of religion just as it does on the basis of sexuality.... if people are going to argue that discrimination includes refusal to print certain things they don't believe in doing rather than simply refusing to serve people at all based on their sexuality then I'd be interested in their position on that scenario too

ethan · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:09

Fact is that neither sexuality, nor race, are a choice,

Where is it you do not have a choice to be gay?

Rroff · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:10

Funny the backlash they are getting comments wise - with most people showing the same irrational phobia and/or hatred they are accusing the bakery of :|

dirtychinchilla · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:12

dowie said:
but the law prohibits discrimination on the basis of religion just as it does on the basis of sexuality.... if people are going to argue that discrimination includes refusal to print certain things they don't believe in doing rather than simply refusing to serve people at all based on their sexuality then I'd be interested in their position on that scenario too

That definition if discrimination is substantially outdated, and you know it. It is entirely acceptable to question decisions people make in their lives. Sexuality, race, and gender are not choices. Religion is.

If I owned a business where it was pertinent to discriminate based on religion (hell knows why...maybe a science museum refusing campaigning creationists or something) I would certainly fight for my right to discriminate on religious grounds.

ethan said:
Where is it you do not have a choice to be gay?

Did you make a choice not to be gay? No, I didn't think so.

cheesyboy · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:12

ethan said:
Where is it you do not have a choice to be gay?

You mean, you choose to be straight? You're attracted to guys and girls then? But you make a choice to only do the sex with the opposite gender?

RDM · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:13

ethan said:
Where is it you do not have a choice to be gay?

Depends on what you mean by "choice to be gay". I know that I didn't choose to be heterosexual, I am just attracted to women. I did however choose to have a heterosexual relationship.

MikeTheNative · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:14

I was under the impression that they could refuse to serve any one they want, just as long you don't say it was because they were gay.

badcompany · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:15

make the cake with a few extra ingredients in?

Mynight · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:15

MikeTheNative said:
I was under the impression that they could refuse to serve any one they want, just as long you don't say it was because they were gay.

Think you have to have a sign reserving your right to refuse service.

RDM · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:15

MikeTheNative said:
I was under the impression that they could refuse to serve any one they want, just as long you don't say it was because they were gay.

They should have refused to serve them because it was an awful design.

cheesyboy · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:17

RDM said:
They should have refused to serve them because it was an awful design.

It offends their artistic integrity?

Mr Badger · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:17

cheesyboy said:
Gay marriage is illegal, not gay cake.

dowie said:
who'd like a Jesus cake?

This is confusing. Which is better - gay cake or Jesus cake?

dowie · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:19

dirtychinchilla said:
That definition if discrimination is substantially outdated, and you know it. It is entirely acceptable to question decisions people make in their lives. Sexuality, race, and gender are not choices. Religion is.

Its not outdated at all - its still covered by law... Try putting a sign up on a shop saying 'No Christians' or 'No Muslims' and you'd soon be in trouble.

Did you make a choice not to be gay? No, I didn't think so.

So what? They've not refused to serve gay people, they've refused to print a cake supporting gay marriage complete with political group's logo on it.

I don't see this as particularly different to the other examples - the exact same law protects race, religion, gender etc...

Mynight · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:19

Mr Badger said:
This is confusing. Which is better - gay cake or Jesus cake?

Why not a gay Jesus cake! That would get some attention

Pawnless Endgame · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:20

Tricky one, regarding whether being gay is a choice of not. If it's genetic, then no, you didn't get a choice.

For religion, it is a choice, but again you have some children being indoctrinated by their parents and they get told off if they don't comply. So those kids get no say. It infuriates me when I see patients on our database of age 2-3 and they're already listed in the demographics section as being of a certain religion.

elmarko · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:21

Mr Badger said:
This is confusing. Which is better - gay cake or Jesus cake?

Gay Jesus cake. (one better).

What people need to remember is that a business is not a person, you are allowed to not bake cakes for gay people if that's how you feel in a private matter. Once you start a business however you agree to comply with the equality laws of the land - it's that simple.

dowie · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:23

elmarko said:
What people need to remember is that a business is not a person, you are allowed to not bake cakes for gay people if that's how you feel in a private matter. Once you start a business however you agree to comply with the equality laws of the land - it's that simple.

and again they've not refused to bake cakes for gay people so it isn't that simple.... they've refused to bake a cake with a particular moral/political message they're opposed to

Should a Pakistani baker be able to refuse a BNP cake, a Romanian Baker a UKIP cake? A N.I. Catholic Baker an Orange Order cake?

elmarko · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:25

dowie said:
and again they've not refused to bake cakes for gay people so it isn't that simple.... they've refused to bake a cake with a particular moral/political message they're opposed to

What's the message about?.

Gay equality isn't a political stance, it's an ethical obligation to a civilised society.

dowie said:
Should a Pakistani baker be able to refuse a BNP cake, a Romanian Baker a UKIP cake? A N.I. Catholic Baker an Orange Order cake?

Because equal rights for gay people cake is the same as a "we hate brown people" BNP cake. :rolleyes:

PMKeates · 8 Jul 2014 at 21:25

I guess the heart of the issue is whether certain beliefs and resulting acts of discrimination are acceptable or not. I'm not sure if anyone else has already decided to make the cliché comparison of "what if they said no because they were black?" and whether that'd be acceptable, but it's fundamentally the same thing.

At one point in time racism was a tolerated point of view, today it's not. Discrimination based on sexuality is going through that transition today and these people are fundamentally on the 'losing' side, whether justified or not.

Moreover, this is all besides the point that their views are totally and utterly irrationally founded. I love the quote:

Baker said:
It certainly was at odds with what the Bible teaches, and on the following Monday we rang the customer to let him know that we couldn't take his order.

At odds with the Bible? Wow, best not check how they are doing vs. Leviticus or Deuteronomy then - but those bits have probably been 'interpreted' I'm sure.