Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

RDM · 8 Jul 2014 at 22:43

FoxEye said:
For Pete's sake, you have to draw the line somewhere. A business should be allowed to trade under their own terms and conditions. It's not like that's the only cake shop they can order from. I'm sure there must be confectionery shops with gay owners, or a gay chef..

A line has been drawn, you just aren't too keen on where it has been drawn.

estebanrey · 8 Jul 2014 at 22:44

FoxEye said:
What if a group, for the lulz, orders a cake with a multitude of offensive messages? Like "white people burn in hell" and "the pope takes it up the ***" etc, etc. I guess that would be OK to refuse under hate speech laws, probably.

OK, now what if a satanic cult orders a cake with something that would offend most (all) religious people? What if just by making that cake the chef would feel really bad? What about a cake promoting paedophilia? Or Jihad? LOL, a Jihad cake, delicious.

For Pete's sake, you have to draw the line somewhere. A business should be allowed to trade under their own terms and conditions. It's not like that's the only cake shop they can order from. I'm sure there must be confectionery shops with gay owners, or a gay chef..

So in your world, a cake shop should be able to display (and enforce) this sign?

dowie · 8 Jul 2014 at 22:45

RDM said:
Missed the first part of my post or just ignoring it?

its just speculation and is unsubstantiated - maybe the political group logo is being hyped up but the overall objection was to the design/message on the cake - there isn't anything to suggest they wouldn't serve gay people at all

So it's not discrimination if you let gays only order heterosexual wedding cakes?

is a cake without a message on it automatically heterosexual?

RDM · 8 Jul 2014 at 22:51

dowie said:
its just speculation and is unsubstantiated - maybe the political group logo is being hyped up but the overall objection was to the design/message on the cake - there isn't anything to suggest they wouldn't serve gay people at all

is a cake without a message on it automatically heterosexual?

The bride and groom figures tend to be a giveaway...

Again you are effectively saying gays cannot get the same service as heterosexuals as heterosexuals can have gender specific messages but homosexuals can't. But somehow that isn't discriminating?

spoffle · 8 Jul 2014 at 22:52

dowie said:
of course

(pigs are haram)

Pigs aren't haram.

dowie · 8 Jul 2014 at 22:53

spoffle said:
Pigs aren't haram.

they are as far as food is concerned

spoffle · 8 Jul 2014 at 22:54

dowie said:
they are as far as food is concerned

Eating pigs is, but pigs themselves aren't, so a cake with a picture of Miss Piggy on it wouldn't be, as you're not eating a pig.

cheesyboy · 8 Jul 2014 at 22:54

FoxEye said:
What if a group, for the lulz, orders a cake with a multitude of offensive messages? Like "white people burn in hell" and "the pope takes it up the ***" etc, etc. I guess that would be OK to refuse under hate speech laws, probably.

OK, now what if a satanic cult orders a cake with something that would offend most (all) religious people? What if just by making that cake the chef would feel really bad? What about a cake promoting paedophilia? Or Jihad? LOL, a Jihad cake, delicious.

For Pete's sake, you have to draw the line somewhere. A business should be allowed to trade under their own terms and conditions. It's not like that's the only cake shop they can order from. I'm sure there must be confectionery shops with gay owners, or a gay chef..

Your examples all involve the cake buyer requesting discriminatory things, or supporting acts where someone comes to harm. None of it is comparable to a message supporting equal rights for gays.

FoxEye · 8 Jul 2014 at 22:55

estebanrey said:
So in your world, a cake shop should be able to display (and enforce) this sign?

You're quite the bore, estebanrey. And your strawman has been addressed by others in the thread.

They are not refusing to serve blacks, gays, or dogs. Just saying that there are some messages they will not put on cakes.

Get a grip.

Tombo · 8 Jul 2014 at 22:58

Isn't this the same as churches not being forced to marry gay people? If they don't have to why should a baker have to make a wedding cake with messages that go against their religion beliefs?

I think it's a bit of a false equivalence to equate it to refusing to serve black people because they aren't refusing to serve them, they are refusing to create something with a message they disagree with.

estebanrey · 8 Jul 2014 at 23:00

FoxEye said:
You're quite the bore, estebanrey. And your strawman has been addressed by others in the thread.

They are not refusing to serve blacks, gays, or dogs. Just saying that there are some messages they will not put on cakes.

Get a grip.

Strawman? Says the man who compared a cake with a pro-gay marriage message to one with a satanist or pedophilia message on??? Oh the irony.

You said...

"A business should be allowed to trade under their own terms and conditions."

By which logic a KKK supporting bakery should be refused to sell cakes to black people. Or did you mean 'the line' should exclusively apply to homosexuals?

estebanrey · 8 Jul 2014 at 23:02

Tombo said:
I think it's a bit of a false equivalence to equate it to refusing to serve black people because they aren't refusing to serve them, they are refusing to create something with a message they disagree with.

OK, what about a bakery who refused to make a cake with a mixed race couple on. Would you support that?

FoxEye · 8 Jul 2014 at 23:02

RDM said:
The bride and groom figures tend to be a giveaway...

Again you are effectively saying gays cannot get the same service as heterosexuals as heterosexuals can have gender specific messages but homosexuals can't. But somehow that isn't discriminating?

How do you know they haven't refused cakes to straight people? Maybe someone asked them for a cake with a bride taking the groom with a strap-on, and they said 'no'?

You don't know that.

Maybe they find other non-gay activities offensive and have refused them also?

This is the real message:

"Nobody is allowed to express any dislike of gay groups, gay people, or gay activities. Or else! (lawyers, press, pressure groups)"

RDM · 8 Jul 2014 at 23:02

Tombo said:
Isn't this the same as churches not being forced to marry gay people? If they don't have to why should a baker have to make a wedding cake with messages that go against their religion beliefs?

I think it's a bit of a false equivalence to equate it to refusing to serve black people because they aren't refusing to serve them, they are refusing to create something with a message they disagree with.

No, because churches have been given a specific exception in law, bakers haven't. There is nothing inherently in the business of baking that should allow discrimination.

Destination · 8 Jul 2014 at 23:04

RDM said:
I thought the law was fairly clear in that you can't discriminate on the basis of gender, sexuality, religion or race if you run a business?

How if they say they take offence at the term queer, and don't wish to print it upon their cakes, as it might offend homosexuals......

Tombo · 8 Jul 2014 at 23:04

RDM said:
No, because churches have been given a specific exception in law, bakers haven't. There is nothing inherently in the business of baking that should allow discrimination.

Why should churches get an exception though? Either it's fine for everyone to discriminate on religious grounds or it's right for no one.

FoxEye · 8 Jul 2014 at 23:05

estebanrey said:
By which logic a KKK supporting bakery should be refused to sell cakes to black people. Or did you mean 'the line' should exclusively apply to homosexuals?

By the gods man you're doing it again.

They didn't refuse to sell a gay person a cake. How... many... times...

They refused to sell a particular cake with a particular message.

dowie · 8 Jul 2014 at 23:05

RDM said:
The bride and groom figures tend to be a giveaway...

Again you are effectively saying gays cannot get the same service as heterosexuals as heterosexuals can have gender specific messages but homosexuals can't. But somehow that isn't discriminating?

I'm saying that they're not refusing to serve gay people they're refusing to write a particular message, create something that they're opposed to morally/politically. Their rights have to be balanced up against the rights of the consumer - they've not refused to make a cake for the customer they've refused to make a cake with a particular design/message.

I'll refer back to me Muslim baker, Jesus cake example...

How about a white baker making a 'black power' cake... for a black customer celebrating the election of say the first black mayor of London... the baker is comfortable with the reason for the cake etc... creates it and puts it in his shop. A white customer comes in and asks for a 'white power' cake... the white baker isn't comfortable with associating with that message even if meant in an innocent way, doesn't want to be seen making such a cake in case he is thought of as a racist... so refuses to make a 'white power' cake for a white customer. The white customer can buy any cake from the store he simply can't have the cake with a 'white power' message on it as the baker isn't comfortable with it. I think the baker should have every right to refuse such a request... I don't think an independent business owner should be forced to create some custom product they're uncomfortable with even if they're happy to create a similar customer product.

Zuban · 8 Jul 2014 at 23:06

could it be copyright issues with bert and ernie and nothing to do with being gay.

dowie · 8 Jul 2014 at 23:07

spoffle said:
Eating pigs is, but pigs themselves aren't, so a cake with a picture of Miss Piggy on it wouldn't be, as you're not eating a pig.

I know - I'm just joking.... I'm fully aware that a Muslim could create and or eat a cake with a picture of miss piggy on should he/she chose to...