Baroness Thatcher has died.

[Biohazard]

Actually that is a good point, however given that the coal industry was heavily subsidised for decades, I suspect that in comparison the City is still extremely profitable with a very good chance of paying dividends on the taxpayers investment. Perhaps with a little less militancy and a bit more foresight the miners could have salvaged far more of their industry than they did by excessive wage demands and strike action.

The point I am illustrating is that both sides were at fault here, the NUM and several Govts....Thatcher, right,y or wrongly was just the one who refused to blink first.

The City is equally, if not more, subsidised from it's deregulated birth helped with oil revenue up to the latest farce. The public are at its mercy. Too big too fail.

No industry has ever been given that status. She created a monster and all people can do is crow about it.

 

[newbiejim]

Actually that is a good point, however given that the coal industry was heavily subsidised for decades, I suspect that in comparison the City is still extremely profitable with a very good chance of paying dividends on the taxpayers investment. Perhaps with a little less militancy and a bit more foresight the miners could have salvaged far more of their industry than they did by excessive wage demands and strike action.

The point I am illustrating is that both sides were at fault here, the NUM and several Govts....Thatcher, right,y or wrongly was just the one who refused to blink first.

Incidentally, you seem a not unreasonable person, after reading post 1269 would you disagree with my interpretation of Dimples post?, do you see my view as being unreasonable?, as in I feel his greedy miners etc could be construed as uneccesarily anti miner and a bit unfair?

 

[Biohazard]

You're wasting your time jim. He can come across as objective, he isn't. He's careful at presentation.

 

[Castiel]

He asked for proof. That isn't it?

It is virtually impossible to find exact figures that are quotable on a forum as each pit regions wages would be determined individually by that time as the wages were proportionate to the output of their region and everything about that particular time is dealing, not with wages but the strikes themselves and the deprivation caused...... I already stated the evidence was largely anecdotal, and illustrative of what Dimple was pointing out. Neither you nor he have to accept it.

 

[Rincewindle]

The whole "not" a state but is a state funeral thing is disgusting, its going to cost £10m (reportedly) and I dont see why the Thatcher estate cant pay for the funeral in total, Mark Thatcher probably has some conflict diamonds he could cash in and pay for everything

And now the so called politically neutral police are planning to pre-arrest people who want to protest, so much for free speech, good old met doing the bidding of the government, wasnt it all the met officers that went to the miners strikes and waived their payslips in front of miners.

And as for the recall of parliament which should only be done in a national emergency, its all quite disgusting how much crying the tories are doing over Thatcher, shes dead and hasnt been in power for 23 years, get over it already! its just a shame that Thatcherism lives on

Well since she negotiated a EU rebate for us that at the moment stands at 5 BILLION a year paid back to us.
Im sure we as a country can afford 10 million for the old dears funeral.

 

[mejinks]

Newbiejim, why do you HAVE to be right? You have turned this thread into arguments about semantics, calling people liars and doing the same thing yourself? If you were in a pub trying the same thing you would have been headbutted and thrown out long ago. I'm trying to ind any value in your posts, but they reek of a child like attitude trying to stamp your feet.

I think the best course of action is to close this thread or involve adults who can carry a valid opinion in it. Thanks to you and your rabid friend, this has gone so far off topic you couldn't get a plane back to it.

I'm sorry if you were bullied in school and now have an inferiority complex and forums are the only place you can talk because nobody in a face to face situation would last more than 5 minutes without wanting to punch you, but please don't use ocuk as that place to seek psychiatric help.

 

[Biohazard]

Rabid friend?

 

[Biohazard]

Well since she negotiated a EU rebate for us that at the moment stands at 5 BILLION a year paid back to us.
Im sure we as a country can afford 10 million for the old dears funeral.

I wonder how many people are going to be forced into penury through welfare reforms at the same time.

 

[Castiel]

Incidentally, you seem a not unreasonable person, after reading post 1269 would you disagree with my interpretation of Dimples post?, do you see my view as being unreasonable?, as in I feel his greedy miners etc could be construed as uneccesarily anti miner and a bit unfair?

I don't think he is anti-miner, he is prejudiced by his personal experience...I don't know if that makes his opinion unfair or unreasonable, it is what it is, his experience, as yours is yours.

The public however did to some degree percieve miners as being greedy basically just because of the historic wage demands and settlements...it wasn't helped by the NUM demanding more even when the workers themselves settled on a settlement in 1982. Whether it is right or wrong, it was a common perception which is why the Miners had (outside of their communities) lower public support than the NCB.

I think it is important to clarify that during the 1980s pit workers earnings were widely disparate depending on which coal region they worked, Nottingham for example earned far more per man shift than Yorkshire, where Stoke comes in that scale I don't know. I can't find any substansive evidence to show you unfortunately, but figures aside by the 1980s Coal Mining was a lucrative job and paid well in excess of average salaries, especially in the regions the pits existed.

It still beggars belief that this £800 figure was actually earned, certainly this was in no way prevalent and this being the case would Dimple not be a tad unfair to feel so much antipathy towards the miners?, even accepting this overtime and bonuses are true a tiny amount of people would earn this. Oil workers always earned more as did other sectors, odd that there seems to be a desire among people on here to paint miners as greedy and not deserving.

I did not say they were undeserving, I think that anyone should fight for the best deal they can get, I am certainly not a supporter of a race to the lowest denominator. I was reflecting on public perception of the time however, and while I agree the higher figures may well be the exception rather than the rule, (the only online evidence I could find of £800 a week in 1980s related to Tin miners) I think you would agree that by the 1980s Coal Mining was a well paid profession compared to many other comparable industries and local standards.

I think that Dimple, given his experience, was reflecting that perception.

 

[Biohazard]

It is virtually impossible to find exact figures that are quotable on a forum as each pit regions wages would be determined individually by that time as the wages were proportionate to the output of their region and everything about that particular time is dealing, not with wages but the strikes themselves and the deprivation caused...... I already stated the evidence was largely anecdotal, and illustrative of what Dimple was pointing out. Neither you nor he have to accept it.

Ok. Average weekly wage for a British male worker in 1980 was around £127.50.

You guys are settled amongst yourself on a weekly average of £150 for miners?

 

[Castiel]

Ok. Average weekly wage for a British male worker in 1980 was around £137.50.

You guys are settled amongst yourself on a weekly average of £150 for miners?

Average wage in 1980 was between £87 and £110 per week depending on which source you use.....£150 per week average for a miner is still significantly above any of them, and even more so depending on the region in which the miner worked. If Stoke was in one of the higher paid regions then that would go some way to explaining Dimples experience.

http://www.abcdiamond.co.uk/average-uk-wage-and-salary

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/593477.stm

http://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/ukearncpi/result2.php

 

[Mickie]

I think it was great that she closed subsidized pits in the north then got nissan in, the jap company and subsidized them instead, so much sense she had..

Privatizing everything so people have less money in their pocket today, good idea thatcher, its good that companies can make a profit on public services, and whats wrong with putting profit before service anyway? Obviously ofgem haven't a clue.

 

[Suarez7]

Newbiejim, why do you HAVE to be right? You have turned this thread into arguments about semantics, calling people liars and doing the same thing yourself? If you were in a pub trying the same thing you would have been headbutted and thrown out long ago. I'm trying to ind any value in your posts, but they reek of a child like attitude trying to stamp your feet.

I think the best course of action is to close this thread or involve adults who can carry a valid opinion in it. Thanks to you and your rabid friend, this has gone so far off topic you couldn't get a plane back to it.

I'm sorry if you were bullied in school and now have an inferiority complex and forums are the only place you can talk because nobody in a face to face situation would last more than 5 minutes without wanting to punch you, but please don't use ocuk as that place to seek psychiatric help.

+1, tried telling him pages and pages ago the same thing but in a shorter way. Lets just give him his glory as it clearly makes him happy "winning on forums".

 

[Hades]

Posting this on the internet using telecom services that she deregulated, powered by energy services that are no longer in direct control of a small number of elitist union leaders, paid for by a job in the financial services industry in Docklands that is there due to Thatcherism, with a career forged on the principles of hard work and self reliance that I feel were directly influenced by her.

I can understand other peoples views but personally I have a lot to be grateful of from her.

 

[momentimori]

Posting this on the internet using telecom services that she deregulated, powered by energy services that are no longer in direct control of a small number of elitist union leaders

Do you realise that the Post Office/British Telecom planned to replace all the copper phone lines with fibre to the home over a ten year period from the mid 80s onwards?

We don't have that now neigh on 30 years later and we're stuck with a massive legacy network that slows us down significantly and won't be replaced any time soon as its too much of a cash cow.

 

[Woden]

Well since she negotiated a EU rebate for us that at the moment stands at 5 BILLION a year paid back to us.
Im sure we as a country can afford 10 million for the old dears funeral.

That 10m could provide over 500k spare bedrooms for a year. Or 500 nurses.

 

[Rincewindle]

That 10m could provide over 500k spare bedrooms for a year. Or 500 nurses.

Yes so ??

Multiply the 5 BILLION rebate she got for us every year for the past 30 YEARS..
And like i say 10 million cost to give her a funeral is nothing...

Or... maybe Scargill could chip in a bit of the 34 grand a year he was getting in the NUM funded apartment in London... FOR THE PAST 30 ODD years.!!

 

[Woden]

Yes so ??

Multiply the 5 BILLION rebate she got for us every year for the past 30 YEARS..
And like i say 10 million cost to give her a funeral is nothing...

Or... maybe Scargill could chip in a bit of the 34 grand a year he was getting in the NUM funded apartment in London... FOR THE PAST 30 ODD years.!!

If 10m is "nothing", what is the point in the spare bedroom "tax"?
Can you not see the hypocrisy of a tory government making every budget cut possible then spending 10m on a funeral for someone that can easily afford her own?

Almost 2700 years worth of jsa that!

 

[Biohazard]

Average wage in 1980 was between £87 and £110 per week depending on which source you use.....£150 per week average for a miner is still significantly above any of them, and even more so depending on the region in which the miner worked. If Stoke was in one of the higher paid regions then that would go some way to explaining Dimples experience.

http://www.abcdiamond.co.uk/average-uk-wage-and-salary

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/593477.stm

http://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/ukearncpi/result2.php

Even taking such such low UK average it can hardly be so disproportionate as to comparing apples with pears. People seemed to be on one hand lauding Thatcher for her anti-socialist stance while at the same time criticising an industry for paying above average. It comes across as strange, people attacking one group of people in the past for vested interests and 'privilege', notwithstanding the inherent differences in those industries, to what we have now where it is no different.. yet the hypocrisy is bare faced.

It's no different to the justified complaints about the two-tiered UK-London economy. In 1980 Londoner's earned less than a thousand pounds more than the average, ten years later that had increased to several thousand. It kept going. Raise these sorts of issues, and your a lefty, ***** northerner etc

It's this double standard when dealing with the very same principle, apparent disparity.

 

[Biohazard]

I think it was great that she closed subsidized pits in the north then got nissan in, the jap company and subsidized them instead, so much sense she had..

Privatizing everything so people have less money in their pocket today, good idea thatcher, its good that companies can make a profit on public services, and whats wrong with putting profit before service anyway? Obviously ofgem haven't a clue.

It is if you want the poor to get poorer and the rich to get richer.

That's what happened under Thatcher and all her proteges and impersonators ever since.

We can now bask in the glory of the 'United Kingdom' being one of the most unequal places to live in the industrialised world. The world we industrialised.