Baroness Thatcher has died.

[No1newts]

Cameron said Thatcher was informed by her secretary of the deceitful behaviour the SYP were committing, whether she knew the ins and outs and don't know but at best she turned a blind eye which is disgusting

Do you have a link (genuinely interested in a read) I think a lot depends on the amount she actually knew and the facts but if she was duly aware then that isn't acceptable.

Yes I'm sure it was hard to believe the thousands of fans all saying the same thing vs some police, I mean all those thousands of fans must've been trying to protect those who apparently caused the deaths of their loved ones and fellow fans????

I'm not saying its right but I can see why it happened

Even a large amount of people from a discredited group will struggle to make their voice heard against a smaller number of people from a credible source (again I'm not making judgements on the actions of fans/police merely saying how it lay then)

Lets not act like it was all evil Thatcher either as you suggest. Media and large sections of the community shared a similar view that the fans were to blame so she hardly flew solo into the wind and denied what, at the time, most wanted.

 

[No1newts]

The Hillsborough families have asked for full disclosure of any documents to see if she had a role in the cover-up.

This is a good thing.

But I would like to think Thatchers involvement is merely a part of it all rather than a purpose of it all which is what you typed is suggesting.

I'm assuming its a typo though.

 

[Purdy]

Do you have a link (genuinely interested in a read) I think a lot depends on the amount she actually knew and the facts but if she was duly aware then that isn't acceptable.



I'm not saying its right but I can see why it happened

Even a large amount of people from a discredited group will struggle to make their voice heard against a smaller number of people from a credible source (again I'm not making judgements on the actions of fans/police merely saying how it lay then)

Lets not act like it was all evil Thatcher either as you suggest. Media and large sections of the community shared a similar view that the fans were to blame so she hardly flew solo into the wind and denied what, at the time, most wanted.

No I don't, it was said when the Hillsborough independent report was being discussed in the HOC, I'm sure you can it on youtube or googling about thatcher's knowledge.

I'm not saying it was all thatcher at all, but I believe she had an involvement particularly with her contempt for football and liverpool as a city and a club I'm sure after the events of Heysel. Also her ignoring something because thats what people wanted to believe is a downright ******** excuse.

This is a good thing.

But I would like to think Thatchers involvement is merely a part of it all rather than a purpose of it all which is what you typed is suggesting.

I'm assuming its a typo though.

I highly doubt she was behind/purpose of it all as it was fairly well orchestrated from the start what the SYP were doing, but if she had a part of knowledge of it as PM it is absolutely disgusting and criminal and she should've been held accountable, lets hope the ones who were involved don't die like her before they can be held accountable, or go demented.

Also the fact it hasn't been released like the initial documents can only be a bad thing.

 

[peter_hutson]

What I find odd, is if Thatcher was so bad why have her economic policy's been largely adopted by all major political parties in the UK (SNP excluded)? If the general feel in the Country is that her economic strategy was damaging and devisive, with little to no benefit, surely a political party would have latched on to this to secure election victory? I suppose it could just be a conspiracy of the ruling elite. Sly buggers the ruling elite!

 

[BuffetSlayer]

The Hillsborough families have asked for full disclosure of any documents to see if she had a role in the cover-up.

I don't really know much about it but I can't help feeling that if she was involved the disclosure will have less chance of happening now, which is unfortunate.

For better or worse, the official stance seems to be that she was a hero of peace time Britain. If disclosing information implicates her, the state will have a bit of an embarrassing u-turn to make.

Mind you, not that it will be a problem - they have had plenty of practice of late!

 

[Macro]

Summed it up for me.

I lived through it and the time was not good during the 80's. Record high unemployment, record high inflation, closures of hospitals and schools let alone any manufacturing that was left.

Presumably you missed the 60's & 70s with industry and the nation on it's knees, 3 day week, power cuts, rubbish in the streets, one strike after another, nationalised industrys uncompetitive and unsustainable with the UK known as "the sick man of Europe" for good reason.

Funny how when it comes to MT people seem to forget the basket case the country was long before she was Prime Minister but like to blame a single person and a single decade for the systematic failures of governments, industry, unions and political parties over several decades.

It has nothing to do with people being "MT lovers", the short sightedness and naivety of some (not all by any means), that try to focus all ills on one person instead of actually pausing to think beyond the unions and lefts easy vitriolic rhetoric does become a little tedious however and unsurprisingly gets challenged. That MT and the conservatives won three consecutive general elections should illustrate that as much as some would like people to think, MT wasn't just supported by a few southern snobs who wanted to see the rest of the country trodden into the ground. Despite what the re writers of history would like people to believe MT & the conservative government had widespread support of a large percentage of the UK population, for good or for bad.

 

[elmarko]

People seem to be ignoring the fact that Labour did sod all to "fix" the issues while they were in power as well. They didn't restore milk for kids for example yet people still bang on about "milk snatcher".

Also, there are some pretty shocking posts about Thatcher on facebook from people I thought were a bit more balanced and sensible. Quite embarassing, frankly.

While that may be true in some cases, many Labour voters are very unhappy with how New Labour changed many of the it's core values (To get into power).

Essentially they became "Conservative Light", but it's silly to suggest that people can't criticise Thatcher because those that came after didn't undo it (as many also criticise New Labour for not undoing it just like you say).

 

[Macro]

To be fair as I understand it (and I could be wrong) MT actually voted against milk being withdrawn completely from schools in the cabinet but was over ruled and so proposed a compromise where milk would be retained children up to 7 years old, she was then obliged to enact the change despite having disagreed with it. Free milk had already been stopped for secondary schools (11-18 year old children) by a previous labour government which always seems to be conveniently forgotten.

 

[RDM]

While that may be true in some cases, many Labour voters are very unhappy with how New Labour changed many of the it's core values (To get into power).

And yet they still kept voting for Labour...

Other than the handful of Socialist Worker Party members I am not sure if there is a widespread desire to return to heavy union control and fully nationalised industries.

 

[oulton]

Much of Northern Europe including Scandinavia and Germany have been proven right. Socialism and wealth can go hand in hand. Thatcher got it completely wrong.

 

[atpbx]

Did she drag them? I mean seems like she just abandoned a lot of places and left them to rot.

I agree things needed to change drastically, but the manner it was done in seems fairly disgraceful based on what I've read and fortunately I never had to live through the hardships from it and it didn't affect my family so all I have is reading articles on the internet and opinions.

Are there any really well off people on here who dislike her? I've certainly seen the rich giving her a bit of a rimjob on here at times

Things were hard for the manufacturing base for a multitude of reasons, the main ones being that everything from TV's to battleships could be bought cheaper and better built elsewhere.

 

[No1newts]

No I don't, it was said when the Hillsborough independent report was being discussed in the HOC, I'm sure you can it on youtube or googling about thatcher's knowledge.

I'm not saying it was all thatcher at all, but I believe she had an involvement particularly with her contempt for football and liverpool as a city and a club I'm sure after the events of Heysel. Also her ignoring something because thats what people wanted to believe is a downright ******** excuse.

Again I'm not saying I think it's right, just saying with what happened and circumstances as they were I can understand (if not agree) with what did happen from her standpoint.

I highly doubt she was behind/purpose of it all as it was fairly well orchestrated from the start what the SYP were doing, but if she had a part of knowledge of it as PM it is absolutely disgusting and criminal and she should've been held accountable, lets hope the ones who were involved don't die like her before they can be held accountable, or go demented.

Also the fact it hasn't been released like the initial documents can only be a bad thing.

I do agree its a bit strange that parts wernt released at first and I'm sure there is more still to come.

I'm a Thatcher fan, I have never disguised tha, but I base that on her approach to the economy and doing (what IMO) had to he done. However being involved in any form if cover up whilst not effecting my admiration of how she dealt with the political/economic situation, would certainly effect my viewing if her as a person.

 

[do_ron_ron]

My beef is more people being left to rot after the pits closed rather than the strike itself. Subsidised puts were draining money and the change had to be made but whole communities were left to decay.

Hence the reason the German Govt continued to subsidise the lignite mines. They reckoned the costs to society would be greater if loads of these miners were put on the dole and better quality black coal imported.

 

[oulton]

Hence the reason the German Govt continued to subsidise the lignite mines. They reckoned the costs to society would be greater if loads of these miners were put on the dole and better quality black coal imported.

Much of Northern Europe including Scandinavia and Germany have been proven right. Socialism and wealth can go hand in hand. Thatcher got it completely wrong.

 

[peter_hutson]

Much of Northern Europe including Scandinavia and Germany have been proven right. Socialism and wealth can go hand in hand. Thatcher got it completely wrong.

I think many people would agree that the pendulum swung too much the other way. But thats not the same as saying the institutions at play in 70's did not need curtailing. Much of Northern Europe has a very different Union/Management setup, it is a far more colaborative setup. The UK did not have that. The Unions are therefore just as reposnible as Thatcher for the strong counteraction and the subsequent weakening of Socialist principles in our economy.

 

[Macro]

I think many people would agree that the pendulum swung too much the other way. But thats not the same as saying the institutions at play in 70's did not need curtailing. Much of Northern Europe has a very different Union/Management setup, it is a far more colaborative setup. The UK did not have that. The Unions are therefore just as reposnible as Thatcher for the strong counteraction and the subsequent weakening of Socialist principles in our economy.

**Wins most sensible post of the thread so far award**

 

[Hagar]

I'm a Thatcher fan, I have never disguised tha, but I base that on her approach to the economy and doing (what IMO) had to he done. However being involved in any form if cover up whilst not effecting my admiration of how she dealt with the political/economic situation, would certainly effect my viewing if her as a person.

I also. I find it hard to believe that if there were a cover up of such magnitude that it would not have leaked in 25 years. These were the days when meetings were minuted (pre Blair).

Would a police officer even a chief of a regional force have one on one confidential access to a PM to discuss an issue such as this?

Even the conspiracy theorist in me thinks it extremely unlikely.

 

[kitch9]

What I find odd, is if Thatcher was so bad why have her economic policy's been largely adopted by all major political parties in the UK (SNP excluded)? If the general feel in the Country is that her economic strategy was damaging and devisive, with little to no benefit, surely a political party would have latched on to this to secure election victory? I suppose it could just be a conspiracy of the ruling elite. Sly buggers the ruling elite!

Labour have opposed everything the coalition have put in place. You just see how much of it gets reversed if/when they win the next election.....

They'll put the higher rate tax band up to 50% and get less revenue from it, and thats about it.

 

[BaZ87]

Do you know for a fact that she knew what was going on and then purposefully blamed the fans?

All we know as fact is that she was informed of the deceitfulness of the police (and that it was 'depressingly familiar') and despite being advised to offer the governments full support of the Taylor Report (the first report into the disaster), her reply was:

What do we mean by 'welcoming the broad thrust of the report'? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations - M.T.

We also know that she had meetings with the Police and other authorities at Hillsborough the day after the disaster however minutes of these meetings were not handed over to the panel, probably because they no longer exist.

 

[Purdy]

Where'd you get that reply of hers BaZ?